Jesus fulfilled the moral law by living the perfect (sinless and faithful) life. But because He is our King... and because we are to follow Him... and because morality flows out of God's very nature... the ramification of Jesus' fulfillment does not dismiss us from living the moral life. Our proper response to Jesus' fulfillment of all things is a faithful response which includes moral living.
So the question is, if the crucifixion was on Passover, the burial was at the beginning of Unleavened Bread, the resurrection was on First Fruits, and the establishment of the church was on Pentacost (so that the types were fulfilled on the day they were celebrated for the first four feasts) when were the last three feasts fulfilled? If they weren't, then the Mosaic Law is still in effect. If they were, there are even bigger implications.
I think Matt is right because Jesus said if you love God and neighbor you have fulfilled the law and the prophets i believe. Also Paul said the Old Covenant is obsolete so in some way all the feasts must have been fulfilled even if it's not clear.
Are the festivals for today? Should we still be observing?
Re: Are the festivals for today? Should we still be observing?
Paul said in Hebrews 8:13,steve7150 wrote:
I think Matt is right because Jesus said if you love God and neighbor you have fulfilled the law and the prophets i believe. Also Paul said the Old Covenant is obsolete so in some way all the feasts must have been fulfilled even if it's not clear.
13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is [j]ready to disappear.
It hadn't disappeared yet as of the writing of Hebrews in about 60AD. If The Law was still in existence at the time, and ready to disappear (NASB) or ready to vanish away (ESV), when did this happen?
Doug
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Re: Are the festivals for today? Should we still be observing?
I think a common belief is that it happened in 70AD when the temple was destroyed. But that would mean that for about 40 years, both covenants were in effect.dwilkins wrote:It hadn't disappeared yet as of the writing of Hebrews in about 60AD. If The Law was still in existence at the time, and ready to disappear (NASB) or ready to vanish away (ESV), when did this happen?
Barnes touches on an idea that makes more sense to me. Paul isn't making a specific statement that the old covenant is about to vanish, but hasn't yet; he's simply making a general statement of the obvious -- when things get old, they go away. In the next chapter (Heb.9) he speaks of the old covenant in the past tense, and throughout his writings it's clear he sees the old covenant as having already passed away, having been superceded by Jesus and the new covenant. So I think the old covenant passed away at the death of Jesus.
Either way, the point is, it's long gone now.
Re: Are the festivals for today? Should we still be observing?
Here's the problem: Paul bases his promise of a resurrection on what Moses taught in the Law. If the Law is passed then the promises (and sanctions) of the Law were fulfilled. If the resurrection had passed because the Law was fulfilled at the cross then Hymenaeus was right. Because he was wrong, the Law hadn't completely been fulfilled yet.
Doug
Doug
Re: Are the festivals for today? Should we still be observing?
Here's the problem: Paul bases his promise of a resurrection on what Moses taught in the Law.
I thought Paul based his promise because of what Jesus said. Where did he reference Moses and a resurrection?
I thought Paul based his promise because of what Jesus said. Where did he reference Moses and a resurrection?
Re: Are the festivals for today? Should we still be observing?
Shaul,
For your consideration:
(All scriptures cited are from New King James Version)
Matthew 5:17-18
17. “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Here Jesus informs us He came to fulfill the law, and that until the Law and Prophets are fulfilled, not the most minute part of the Law will pass away. Jesus has fulfilled the Law and Prophets, or He has not. That is simple.
We have Paul's testimony that the Law has in fact passed away, therefore the Law and the Prophets must have been fulfilled:
Romans 6:12-14
12. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Romans 7:1-6
1. Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2. For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3. So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4. Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5. For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6. But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
Now that we have been released from the Law, we are obligated to our Lord Jesus and His commands. We are to make disciples (Matthew 28:20), "teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you". There are no Jewish festivals in His commandments. We now walk by His Spirit and while doing so fulfill what the Law required:
Romans 8:1-4
1. There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4. that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
The Law is not needed as our teacher; we are taught by the Gospel:
Titus 2:11-12
11. For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12. teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
Matt is correct, we are under the Law of Christ.
I think the great mistake made in all this in the unscriptural practice of categorizing the Law of Moses into judicial, moral, and ceremonial parts and wondering which is in effect and which is done away as a rule of life. The apostles never made this distinction. It was all simply the Law. No need to try to determine which part or piece is done away, it all has been supplanted by a law of greater glory; it has served its purpose:
2 Corinthians 3:7-11
7. But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8. how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9. For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10. For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11. For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
For your consideration:
(All scriptures cited are from New King James Version)
Matthew 5:17-18
17. “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Here Jesus informs us He came to fulfill the law, and that until the Law and Prophets are fulfilled, not the most minute part of the Law will pass away. Jesus has fulfilled the Law and Prophets, or He has not. That is simple.
We have Paul's testimony that the Law has in fact passed away, therefore the Law and the Prophets must have been fulfilled:
Romans 6:12-14
12. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Romans 7:1-6
1. Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2. For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3. So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4. Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5. For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6. But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
Now that we have been released from the Law, we are obligated to our Lord Jesus and His commands. We are to make disciples (Matthew 28:20), "teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you". There are no Jewish festivals in His commandments. We now walk by His Spirit and while doing so fulfill what the Law required:
Romans 8:1-4
1. There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4. that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
The Law is not needed as our teacher; we are taught by the Gospel:
Titus 2:11-12
11. For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12. teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
Matt is correct, we are under the Law of Christ.
I think the great mistake made in all this in the unscriptural practice of categorizing the Law of Moses into judicial, moral, and ceremonial parts and wondering which is in effect and which is done away as a rule of life. The apostles never made this distinction. It was all simply the Law. No need to try to determine which part or piece is done away, it all has been supplanted by a law of greater glory; it has served its purpose:
2 Corinthians 3:7-11
7. But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8. how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9. For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10. For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11. For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
Re: Are the festivals for today? Should we still be observing?
The following are some examples of Paul's comments about resurrection from Acts:
Acts 23:6 But when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, “Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!”
Acts 24:14 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets. 15 I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead,[c] both of the just and the unjust.
Acts 26: 6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers. 7 To this promise our twelve tribes, earnestly serving God night and day, hope to attain. For this hope’s sake, King Agrippa, I am accused by the Jews. 8 Why should it be thought incredible by you that God raises the dead?
Acts 28:23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some were persuaded by the things which were spoken, and some disbelieved.
The Law and the Prophets predicted the resurrection of the just and the unjust. If the Law had been fulfilled then its promises were fulfilled. The Law, therefore, couldn't have been fulfilled before Paul wrote about Hymenaeus because Hymenaeus proclaimed that the resurrection had already happened. By saying that the resurrection hadn't happened, Paul is saying that the Law was still in some context in effect.
Doug
Acts 23:6 But when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, “Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!”
Acts 24:14 But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets. 15 I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead,[c] both of the just and the unjust.
Acts 26: 6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers. 7 To this promise our twelve tribes, earnestly serving God night and day, hope to attain. For this hope’s sake, King Agrippa, I am accused by the Jews. 8 Why should it be thought incredible by you that God raises the dead?
Acts 28:23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some were persuaded by the things which were spoken, and some disbelieved.
The Law and the Prophets predicted the resurrection of the just and the unjust. If the Law had been fulfilled then its promises were fulfilled. The Law, therefore, couldn't have been fulfilled before Paul wrote about Hymenaeus because Hymenaeus proclaimed that the resurrection had already happened. By saying that the resurrection hadn't happened, Paul is saying that the Law was still in some context in effect.
Doug
Re: Are the festivals for today? Should we still be observing?
The Law and the Prophets predicted the resurrection of the just and the unjust. If the Law had been fulfilled then its promises were fulfilled. The Law, therefore, couldn't have been fulfilled before Paul wrote about Hymenaeus because Hymenaeus proclaimed that the resurrection had already happened. By saying that the resurrection hadn't happened, Paul is saying that the Law was still in some context in effect.
I understand your point but the resurrection of everyone has still not occurred and although it is predicted in Daniel , Jesus elaborated several times that there would be a resurrection of the just and unjust on the last day.
So although the resurrection mentioned in Daniel, which BTW is not part of "the law" has not happened yet, i don't see how that would mean "the law" is in effect.
Daniel and possibly Job as far as i know are the only specific references to a resurrection in the OT & they are not part of "the law" but even if they were , Jesus commands and statements take precedence.
I don't see how two covenants with different rules can operate simultaneously for the follower of Christ. Some of "the law of Christ" incorporated or elaborated certain moral laws from the Old Covenant, but i also think the Old Covenant ended on the cross.
I understand your point but the resurrection of everyone has still not occurred and although it is predicted in Daniel , Jesus elaborated several times that there would be a resurrection of the just and unjust on the last day.
So although the resurrection mentioned in Daniel, which BTW is not part of "the law" has not happened yet, i don't see how that would mean "the law" is in effect.
Daniel and possibly Job as far as i know are the only specific references to a resurrection in the OT & they are not part of "the law" but even if they were , Jesus commands and statements take precedence.
I don't see how two covenants with different rules can operate simultaneously for the follower of Christ. Some of "the law of Christ" incorporated or elaborated certain moral laws from the Old Covenant, but i also think the Old Covenant ended on the cross.
Re: Are the festivals for today? Should we still be observing?
Maybe my point would be more clear if I came at it from the point of view of the end of Deuteronomy. Deuteronomy is basically a restatement of the Law of Moses to the generation that was born after the Law was originally given. For those interested it follows the Suzerain Vassal Treaty format which Chilton describes in detail in "Days of Vengeance". The blessing and cursing clause is found in chapters 28-32. Chapter 32 is the Song of Moses, which is supposed to be sung by the nation on a yearly basis to remind them that one day the nation will become so degenerate that it will be destroyed forever under this treaty (and which is referred to in Revelation 15:3 as finally being fulfilled) . The part I want to focus on is below:
Deu 32:16 They provoked me to anger with strange gods; with their abominations they bitterly angered me.
Deu 32:17 They sacrificed to devils, and not to God; to gods whom they knew not: new and fresh gods came in, whom their fathers knew not.
Deu 32:18 Thou hast forsaken God that begot thee, and forgotten God who feeds thee.
Deu 32:19 And the Lord saw, and was jealous; and was provoked by the anger of his sons and daughters,
Deu 32:20 and said, I will turn away my face from them, and will show what shall happen to them in the last days; for it is a perverse generation, sons in whom is no faith.
Deu 32:21 They have provoked me to jealousy with that which is not God, they have exasperated me with their idols; and I will provoke them to jealousy with them that are no nation, I will anger them with a nation void of understanding.
Deu 32:22 For a fire has been kindled out of my wrath, it shall burn to hell below; it shall devour the land, and the fruits of it; it shall set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
Deu 32:23 I will gather evils upon them, and will fight with my weapons against them.
Deu 32:24 They shall be consumed with hunger and the devouring of birds, and there shall be irremediable destruction: I will send forth against them the teeth of wild beasts, with the rage of serpents creeping on the ground.
Deu 32:25 Without, the sword shall bereave them of children, and terror shall issue out of the secret chambers; the young man shall perish with the virgin, the suckling with him who has grown old.
Deu 32:26 I said, I will scatter them, and I will cause their memorial to cease from among men.
Jesus, Peter, and Paul all quote this section of this chapter in their condemnation of their generation. Paul's comments are quite easy to see in v.21. The point is that the generation in which the Gentiles are recruited in order to make the apostate Israelites jealous is the one in which this penalty clause is executed. The fact that Paul relies on the ongoing function of the gathering of Gentiles is an explicit declaration that this portion of the Law was functional and not fulfilled at the time of the writing of Romans. In other words, if Paul is relying on this passage to allow Gentiles to join the faithful remnant of Israel then this portion of the Law could not have been fulfilled earlier than the writing of Romans.
I am not arguing that the two covenants operate simultaneously for Christians. Gentile Christians were never under the Old Covenant and Jews who became Christians had to die to their old identity and be born again into a New Covenant in order to become Christians.
Doug
Deu 32:16 They provoked me to anger with strange gods; with their abominations they bitterly angered me.
Deu 32:17 They sacrificed to devils, and not to God; to gods whom they knew not: new and fresh gods came in, whom their fathers knew not.
Deu 32:18 Thou hast forsaken God that begot thee, and forgotten God who feeds thee.
Deu 32:19 And the Lord saw, and was jealous; and was provoked by the anger of his sons and daughters,
Deu 32:20 and said, I will turn away my face from them, and will show what shall happen to them in the last days; for it is a perverse generation, sons in whom is no faith.
Deu 32:21 They have provoked me to jealousy with that which is not God, they have exasperated me with their idols; and I will provoke them to jealousy with them that are no nation, I will anger them with a nation void of understanding.
Deu 32:22 For a fire has been kindled out of my wrath, it shall burn to hell below; it shall devour the land, and the fruits of it; it shall set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
Deu 32:23 I will gather evils upon them, and will fight with my weapons against them.
Deu 32:24 They shall be consumed with hunger and the devouring of birds, and there shall be irremediable destruction: I will send forth against them the teeth of wild beasts, with the rage of serpents creeping on the ground.
Deu 32:25 Without, the sword shall bereave them of children, and terror shall issue out of the secret chambers; the young man shall perish with the virgin, the suckling with him who has grown old.
Deu 32:26 I said, I will scatter them, and I will cause their memorial to cease from among men.
Jesus, Peter, and Paul all quote this section of this chapter in their condemnation of their generation. Paul's comments are quite easy to see in v.21. The point is that the generation in which the Gentiles are recruited in order to make the apostate Israelites jealous is the one in which this penalty clause is executed. The fact that Paul relies on the ongoing function of the gathering of Gentiles is an explicit declaration that this portion of the Law was functional and not fulfilled at the time of the writing of Romans. In other words, if Paul is relying on this passage to allow Gentiles to join the faithful remnant of Israel then this portion of the Law could not have been fulfilled earlier than the writing of Romans.
I am not arguing that the two covenants operate simultaneously for Christians. Gentile Christians were never under the Old Covenant and Jews who became Christians had to die to their old identity and be born again into a New Covenant in order to become Christians.
Doug
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Re: Are the festivals for today? Should we still be observing?
See what you started Shaul, a fire. Some times fires are good, so as to burn up the chaff and clean the field. (And hopefully a few can be saved from the fire).
Welcome Shaul, your post was easy to read and well written. I was going to respond a week ago and say I liked Doug’s post a lot (and subsequent ones). Likewise like Doug also said the first thing that came to my mind was dress rehearsal (and another synonym I cant remember) much like a wedding rehearsal (in the same way the Law prepared us for the New Covenant).
Memorials were kept so that the people would not forget all that God has done for them (for their own good), if everything is now in Christ Jesus then we should not forget to celebrate 'in' Him, and likewise everything He has done for us. So just as remembering what God has done is not a bad thing (and it is always lawful to do good) it is a good thing to keep a memory of what God has done, and so keeping a Holy Holiday cannot be wrong.
If keeping a day as a memorial seems a good thing, then do so (Colossians 3:16). I don’t personally keep any Holydays or memorials because I am so busy (keeping birthdays for young children), but I know I celebrate the Passover, the Shabbat, Yom Kippur in my day to day walk, yet I would not be ‘breaking any law’ by putting aside a time to celebrate or reflect on these days.
I celebrate the fourth of July because I love to commemorate the freedom and spirit of our country’s roots, still even if I don’t celebrate the fourth I am always full of the spirit of that day and enjoying the benefits of freedom.
It is the same way with the Laws rituals and festivals.
What I find horribly devastating is the common misunderstanding that the Law is done away with.
That the Law no longer applies, but nothing is further from the truth, it is now fulfilled in us through Jesus, the Law is kept when we live in Him, when we enter into His rest we are keeping the Sabbath.
Everything is – fulfilled – in Christ, God did what we could not do, so what we could not do, we can do in Him, ‘because’ He can do all things.
I visit my mom in her nursing home (as hard as it is to do so) because we are told to honor our mother and father. Do we now 'not' have to keep the 10 Commandments because we are dead to the Law?
Do we not want to refrain from murder, adultery, lying and coveting?
That doesn’t make sense. What makes sense is Jesus keeps our path straight, and He has put His Law in my heart, and His Law is a light to my feet and health to my soul.
The Law and New Covenant is seen in the New moon, it is not a ‘new’ moon, it is the same moon but the former moon has faded and the new one grown brighter, this is a picture of the Law and the new Covenant. It is the 'same' moon only now Jesus is the Law, the Word (although He always was) made alive in us, and the Word now gives life, as the former moon put us to death, thank God. Now we are 'in' the Law (in the Word) not fulfilling the Law ourselves but Jesus fulfills the Law through us (that’s why I didn’t cut the sides of my beard this morning).
Welcome Shaul, your post was easy to read and well written. I was going to respond a week ago and say I liked Doug’s post a lot (and subsequent ones). Likewise like Doug also said the first thing that came to my mind was dress rehearsal (and another synonym I cant remember) much like a wedding rehearsal (in the same way the Law prepared us for the New Covenant).
Memorials were kept so that the people would not forget all that God has done for them (for their own good), if everything is now in Christ Jesus then we should not forget to celebrate 'in' Him, and likewise everything He has done for us. So just as remembering what God has done is not a bad thing (and it is always lawful to do good) it is a good thing to keep a memory of what God has done, and so keeping a Holy Holiday cannot be wrong.
If keeping a day as a memorial seems a good thing, then do so (Colossians 3:16). I don’t personally keep any Holydays or memorials because I am so busy (keeping birthdays for young children), but I know I celebrate the Passover, the Shabbat, Yom Kippur in my day to day walk, yet I would not be ‘breaking any law’ by putting aside a time to celebrate or reflect on these days.
I celebrate the fourth of July because I love to commemorate the freedom and spirit of our country’s roots, still even if I don’t celebrate the fourth I am always full of the spirit of that day and enjoying the benefits of freedom.
It is the same way with the Laws rituals and festivals.
What I find horribly devastating is the common misunderstanding that the Law is done away with.
That the Law no longer applies, but nothing is further from the truth, it is now fulfilled in us through Jesus, the Law is kept when we live in Him, when we enter into His rest we are keeping the Sabbath.
Everything is – fulfilled – in Christ, God did what we could not do, so what we could not do, we can do in Him, ‘because’ He can do all things.
I visit my mom in her nursing home (as hard as it is to do so) because we are told to honor our mother and father. Do we now 'not' have to keep the 10 Commandments because we are dead to the Law?
Do we not want to refrain from murder, adultery, lying and coveting?
That doesn’t make sense. What makes sense is Jesus keeps our path straight, and He has put His Law in my heart, and His Law is a light to my feet and health to my soul.
The Law and New Covenant is seen in the New moon, it is not a ‘new’ moon, it is the same moon but the former moon has faded and the new one grown brighter, this is a picture of the Law and the new Covenant. It is the 'same' moon only now Jesus is the Law, the Word (although He always was) made alive in us, and the Word now gives life, as the former moon put us to death, thank God. Now we are 'in' the Law (in the Word) not fulfilling the Law ourselves but Jesus fulfills the Law through us (that’s why I didn’t cut the sides of my beard this morning).