Are the festivals for today? Should we still be observing?
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jriccitelli
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Re: Are the festivals for today? Should we still be observing?
Jesus is both the Old and New Covenant, the only difference is that the Law was made flesh. The Law was a mere copy of the heavenly one, and Moses (and men) were only able to perform in the copy of the heavenly One, that is until the true tabernacle showed up and now we enter into the new tabernacle 'His Body' – were all things have their fulfillment - am I right or wrong?
Re: Are the festivals for today? Should we still be observing?
Here is my opinion, which I have held for years, regarding Christians and the Law of Moses, including the Ten Commandments.
A. In 2 Corinthians 3 Paul informs us that the Ten Commandments were being replaced by the New Covenant:
2 Corinthians 3 (New King James Version)
1. Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you?
2. You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men;
3. clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.
*Here we have an allusion to the Ten Commandments and that which was written by the Spirit, through Paul, on their hearts. See Jeremiah 31:33
4. And we have such trust through Christ toward God.
5. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God,
6. who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
*Another reference to the Ten Commandments and the Spirit, as in v.3. The Law kills; it can not give life.
7. But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, ("passing away" is Strong's #2673, see below)
*Here Paul explicitly refers to the Ten Commandments as the "ministery of death", and hints that it is passing away.
8. how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
9. For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.
*Though the Ten Commandments were glorious, the ministry of the Spirit is much more so.
10. For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels.
11. For if what is passing away (Strong's #2673) was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
*At the time Paul wrote, the Ten Commandments were in the process of passing away.
12. Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech—
13. unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away(Strong's #2673).
14. But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away (Strong's #2673) in Christ.
*The vail of the Law is taken away in Christ.
15. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
16. Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. (Strong's #4014)
17. Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Definition of Strong's # 2673, Katargeo:
to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
to deprive of force, influence, power
to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
to cease, to pass away, be done away
to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
to terminate all intercourse with one
B. The 10 commandments were the first/old covenant. [The Ten Commandments were at least a synechdoche for the whole old covenant, if not the actual covenant itself. (Old Covenant = Old Testament)]
To demonstrate this all we need to do is quote the Bible without comment.
The "tablets" are part of the abolished first covenant:
Heb 8:13, When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
Hebrews 9:1,4 "Now even the first covenant had ... the tables of the covenant"
Exodus 34:27-28: "Then the Lord said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments."
Deuteronomy 4:13: "So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.
Deuteronomy 5:2-3: "The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of us alive here today."
Deuteronomy 9:9: "When I went up to the mountain to receive the tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant which the Lord had made with you, then I remained on the mountain forty days and nights; I neither ate bread nor drank water.
1 Kings 8:9,21: "9. There was nothing in the ark except the two tablets of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, where the Lord made a covenant with the sons of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt." ... 21. "And there I have set a place for the ark, in which is the covenant of the Lord, which He made with our fathers when He brought them from the land of Egypt."
2 Chronicles 6:11: "And there I have set the ark, in which is the covenant of the Lord, which He made with the sons of Israel."
In 2 Corinthians 3:2-11, the abolished Old Covenant included the 10 commandments!
C. Hebrews 8:7-13 speaks of the Old Covenant being replaced and v.13 says the same thing as 2 Cor. 3:11:
Hebrews 8:7-13
7. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
8. For finding fault with them, He says,
"BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
9. NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
10. FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11. AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,'
FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME,
FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12. FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."
13. When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
D. There is one Old Covenant (Law) that was never divided up by the Jews and Apostles, as the moderns do, into moral, ceremonial, judicial, etc. categories, wherin they argue that this or that part has been done away. The writers of the bible knew of no such divisions.
The Ten Commandments and ceremonial laws are mixed together with no distinction in Leviticus 19:1-37.
The Ten Commandments are referred to as "statutes", "ordinances", "commandments", "judgements", and "testimonies" without distinction in Deuteronomy 5:1-6:25.
Deuteronomy 5:2 refers to the Ten Commandments as the covenant.
E. Paul said of the "old" law and "new" law:
1 Corinthians 9:20-21: "20. To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
21. to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
From which we conclude:
1. Paul is not under the Law of the Jews (Old Covenant, which included the Ten Commandments)
2. Paul is not without law.
3. Paul is under a different law.
4. Paul is under the Law of Christ
Romans 7:1-7:
1. Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
2. For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released (#2673) from the law concerning the husband.
3. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
4. Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
5. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
6. But now we have been released from the Law, (#2673) having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
7. What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."
Conclusion:
1. We have been released from the Law.
2. We are adulterers if we are under both the Law of Moses and the Law of Christ simultaneously (v. 3).
2. The Law Paul had in mind included the Ten Commandments, "You shall not covet" (v. 7).
F. The Old Covenant Law, including the Ten Commmandments, is Fulfilled in the Law of Christ:
Romans 13:8-10:
8. Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10. Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law
G. The Old Covenant, including the Ten Commandments was nailed to the cross:
Colossians 2:13-14:
13. When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14. having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
H. There is not one statement in the New Testament that changes the Sabbath to Sunday. We are not obligated to keep the Sabbath; and it was as much a part of the Ten Commandments as any of the other nine.
I. Nothing in the life, death or ministry of Christ made any part of the laws of ancient Israel (including the Ten Commandments and the Mosaic covenant) binding on the Church. To the extent any of those laws are binding on gentile nations today, they must be independently found to be a part of the universal law of nature ("natural law", in the old sense, equals "moral law") which has always been in force.
J. Regarding Matthew 5:17, consider:
Matthew 1:21-23 (NKJV) "And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins." 22. So all this was done that it might be fulfilled [pleroo] which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23. "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."
Matthew 2:15 (NKJV) and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled [pleroo] which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt I called My Son."
Matthew 2:17 (NKJV) Then was fulfilled [pleroo] what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying:
Matthew 2:23 (NKJV) And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that it might be fulfilled [pleroo] which was spoken by the prophets, "He shall be called a Nazarene."
Matthew 26:56 (NKJV) "But all this was done that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled [pleroo]." Then all the disciples forsook Him and fled.
In conclusion I would say we are not under a lesser law, but a higher law, viz. the Royal Law, the Law of Christ. In keeping it we will fulfill the requirements of all righteousness found in the Old Covenant, including the Ten Commandments.
A. In 2 Corinthians 3 Paul informs us that the Ten Commandments were being replaced by the New Covenant:
2 Corinthians 3 (New King James Version)
1. Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you?
2. You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men;
3. clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.
*Here we have an allusion to the Ten Commandments and that which was written by the Spirit, through Paul, on their hearts. See Jeremiah 31:33
4. And we have such trust through Christ toward God.
5. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God,
6. who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
*Another reference to the Ten Commandments and the Spirit, as in v.3. The Law kills; it can not give life.
7. But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, ("passing away" is Strong's #2673, see below)
*Here Paul explicitly refers to the Ten Commandments as the "ministery of death", and hints that it is passing away.
8. how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
9. For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.
*Though the Ten Commandments were glorious, the ministry of the Spirit is much more so.
10. For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels.
11. For if what is passing away (Strong's #2673) was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
*At the time Paul wrote, the Ten Commandments were in the process of passing away.
12. Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech—
13. unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away(Strong's #2673).
14. But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away (Strong's #2673) in Christ.
*The vail of the Law is taken away in Christ.
15. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
16. Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. (Strong's #4014)
17. Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Definition of Strong's # 2673, Katargeo:
to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
to deprive of force, influence, power
to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
to cease, to pass away, be done away
to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
to terminate all intercourse with one
B. The 10 commandments were the first/old covenant. [The Ten Commandments were at least a synechdoche for the whole old covenant, if not the actual covenant itself. (Old Covenant = Old Testament)]
To demonstrate this all we need to do is quote the Bible without comment.
The "tablets" are part of the abolished first covenant:
Heb 8:13, When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
Hebrews 9:1,4 "Now even the first covenant had ... the tables of the covenant"
Exodus 34:27-28: "Then the Lord said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments."
Deuteronomy 4:13: "So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.
Deuteronomy 5:2-3: "The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of us alive here today."
Deuteronomy 9:9: "When I went up to the mountain to receive the tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant which the Lord had made with you, then I remained on the mountain forty days and nights; I neither ate bread nor drank water.
1 Kings 8:9,21: "9. There was nothing in the ark except the two tablets of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, where the Lord made a covenant with the sons of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt." ... 21. "And there I have set a place for the ark, in which is the covenant of the Lord, which He made with our fathers when He brought them from the land of Egypt."
2 Chronicles 6:11: "And there I have set the ark, in which is the covenant of the Lord, which He made with the sons of Israel."
In 2 Corinthians 3:2-11, the abolished Old Covenant included the 10 commandments!
C. Hebrews 8:7-13 speaks of the Old Covenant being replaced and v.13 says the same thing as 2 Cor. 3:11:
Hebrews 8:7-13
7. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
8. For finding fault with them, He says,
"BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
9. NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
10. FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11. AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,'
FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME,
FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12. FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."
13. When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
D. There is one Old Covenant (Law) that was never divided up by the Jews and Apostles, as the moderns do, into moral, ceremonial, judicial, etc. categories, wherin they argue that this or that part has been done away. The writers of the bible knew of no such divisions.
The Ten Commandments and ceremonial laws are mixed together with no distinction in Leviticus 19:1-37.
The Ten Commandments are referred to as "statutes", "ordinances", "commandments", "judgements", and "testimonies" without distinction in Deuteronomy 5:1-6:25.
Deuteronomy 5:2 refers to the Ten Commandments as the covenant.
E. Paul said of the "old" law and "new" law:
1 Corinthians 9:20-21: "20. To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
21. to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
From which we conclude:
1. Paul is not under the Law of the Jews (Old Covenant, which included the Ten Commandments)
2. Paul is not without law.
3. Paul is under a different law.
4. Paul is under the Law of Christ
Romans 7:1-7:
1. Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
2. For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released (#2673) from the law concerning the husband.
3. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
4. Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
5. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
6. But now we have been released from the Law, (#2673) having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
7. What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."
Conclusion:
1. We have been released from the Law.
2. We are adulterers if we are under both the Law of Moses and the Law of Christ simultaneously (v. 3).
2. The Law Paul had in mind included the Ten Commandments, "You shall not covet" (v. 7).
F. The Old Covenant Law, including the Ten Commmandments, is Fulfilled in the Law of Christ:
Romans 13:8-10:
8. Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10. Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law
G. The Old Covenant, including the Ten Commandments was nailed to the cross:
Colossians 2:13-14:
13. When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14. having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
H. There is not one statement in the New Testament that changes the Sabbath to Sunday. We are not obligated to keep the Sabbath; and it was as much a part of the Ten Commandments as any of the other nine.
I. Nothing in the life, death or ministry of Christ made any part of the laws of ancient Israel (including the Ten Commandments and the Mosaic covenant) binding on the Church. To the extent any of those laws are binding on gentile nations today, they must be independently found to be a part of the universal law of nature ("natural law", in the old sense, equals "moral law") which has always been in force.
J. Regarding Matthew 5:17, consider:
Matthew 1:21-23 (NKJV) "And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins." 22. So all this was done that it might be fulfilled [pleroo] which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23. "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."
Matthew 2:15 (NKJV) and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled [pleroo] which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt I called My Son."
Matthew 2:17 (NKJV) Then was fulfilled [pleroo] what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying:
Matthew 2:23 (NKJV) And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that it might be fulfilled [pleroo] which was spoken by the prophets, "He shall be called a Nazarene."
Matthew 26:56 (NKJV) "But all this was done that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled [pleroo]." Then all the disciples forsook Him and fled.
In conclusion I would say we are not under a lesser law, but a higher law, viz. the Royal Law, the Law of Christ. In keeping it we will fulfill the requirements of all righteousness found in the Old Covenant, including the Ten Commandments.
-
jriccitelli
- Posts: 1317
- Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:14 am
- Location: San Jose, CA
- Contact:
Re: Are the festivals for today? Should we still be observing?
I was going to disagree with you, and only slightly, but after reading your last line I would have to think you are agreeing with me; “… the Law of Christ. In keeping it we will fulfill the requirements of all righteousness found in the Old Covenant, including the Ten Commandments”
In effect that is what I said; ‘Keeping the Law of Christ, is keeping the Ten Commandments’
I often have to debate with Mormons and other legalists, proving to them that we are ‘not’ justified by the Law, nor can anyone possibly come close to keeping the Law.
And on the other hand I often find myself having to show the ‘christian’ that we need to pursue holiness and fear God, that the whole Bible is our teacher and the Law teaches us about Gods holiness, and what holiness really looks like.
I have posted enough here before proclaiming we are saved and justified by Grace through Faith, but I would hope that as we mature we have the veil start to lift and see the beauty, purpose, truth, wisdom and JESUS in the Law, this is what I am talking about. As I grow learn and read the OT I see the application and meanings behind the Law, even though I am not a Jew or am I under the Law.
The legalist finds joy and relief in Gods grace, and the sinner finds purpose and sanctification in Gods Law. I am only saying what Jesus and Paul taught, Jesus taught that we should be Holy and bear fruit, and Paul taught the same, and both taught so from the Law;
‘Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law’ (Romans 3:31)
What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “YOU SHALL NOT COVET.” … this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. (Rom7:7-12)
Does anyone understand this? (Please tell me someone gets this)
The mandate is pressed upon us by Jesus and Paul that one must die first in order to be raised again, and that is what the Law does it kills – but for the believer that is a good thing – we want to die, we want to crucify our flesh, to put to death the deeds of the body that is what the New Testament emphasizes about the purpose of the Law.
Homer you noted; ‘The Old Covenant, including the Ten Commandments was nailed to the cross’
True but what really was nailed to the Cross?
Answer; Jesus was nailed to the cross, Jesus was the Law, and the Lamb, and the fulfillment of the Law.
‘Knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin’ (Romans 6:6)
“For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. 20“I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me (Gal 2;19)
‘Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires’ Gal 5:24
We also are nailed with Him to the Cross, when we are in Him.
Remember Paul also uses the Law over and over to remind us what sort of Christians we should be, Paul used and quotes the Law to remind us what morality, righteousness and holiness look like (Paul and Jesus also refer to the blessings from the Law as rewards and joy).
In effect that is what I said; ‘Keeping the Law of Christ, is keeping the Ten Commandments’
I often have to debate with Mormons and other legalists, proving to them that we are ‘not’ justified by the Law, nor can anyone possibly come close to keeping the Law.
And on the other hand I often find myself having to show the ‘christian’ that we need to pursue holiness and fear God, that the whole Bible is our teacher and the Law teaches us about Gods holiness, and what holiness really looks like.
I have posted enough here before proclaiming we are saved and justified by Grace through Faith, but I would hope that as we mature we have the veil start to lift and see the beauty, purpose, truth, wisdom and JESUS in the Law, this is what I am talking about. As I grow learn and read the OT I see the application and meanings behind the Law, even though I am not a Jew or am I under the Law.
The legalist finds joy and relief in Gods grace, and the sinner finds purpose and sanctification in Gods Law. I am only saying what Jesus and Paul taught, Jesus taught that we should be Holy and bear fruit, and Paul taught the same, and both taught so from the Law;
‘Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law’ (Romans 3:31)
What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “YOU SHALL NOT COVET.” … this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. (Rom7:7-12)
Does anyone understand this? (Please tell me someone gets this)
The mandate is pressed upon us by Jesus and Paul that one must die first in order to be raised again, and that is what the Law does it kills – but for the believer that is a good thing – we want to die, we want to crucify our flesh, to put to death the deeds of the body that is what the New Testament emphasizes about the purpose of the Law.
Homer you noted; ‘The Old Covenant, including the Ten Commandments was nailed to the cross’
True but what really was nailed to the Cross?
Answer; Jesus was nailed to the cross, Jesus was the Law, and the Lamb, and the fulfillment of the Law.
‘Knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin’ (Romans 6:6)
“For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. 20“I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me (Gal 2;19)
‘Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires’ Gal 5:24
We also are nailed with Him to the Cross, when we are in Him.
Remember Paul also uses the Law over and over to remind us what sort of Christians we should be, Paul used and quotes the Law to remind us what morality, righteousness and holiness look like (Paul and Jesus also refer to the blessings from the Law as rewards and joy).
Re: Are the festivals for today? Should we still be observing?
Just wanted to take a quick moment to thank everyone for writing up replies and jumping into the conversation. I have a lot to sift through here both in thought and study and am excited to do so. There are definitely some ideas floating around in my head that I look forward to praying and reading through. Again, thanks for the time and more conversation and ideas is certainly welcome. Just have been super busy lately and have not been able to join in but wanted you guys to know that I was reading and listening to what you have shared. I will jump back in with some questions hopefully within the week or next as I know that I have a few already.
Blessings
Shaul
Blessings
Shaul
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jriccitelli
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Re: Are the festivals for today? Should we still be observing?
Take your time Shaul, but I thought of still one more thing;
The Old and New seem to have similarities, and some think that it is confusing, but one helpful way of understanding this would be to think of the United States bill of Rights and the English Bill of Rights, one is based on the other and although not the same they contain some things that are exactly the same. Just because you have a New Covenant does not mean that ’nothing’ in the Old Covenant can be included or accepted (this is what many people have been taught).
The New is just a new agreement, like a new lease. A new lease can have exactly the same conditions and considerations as the Old - or - it may have ‘new’ provisions or terms.
The Law was changed, and a New Covenant was made, but the purpose certainly has not changed (to increase their number, bless them and make them a righteous people), so also many of the laws have not changed, although the penalties, the power to do them and the motive has indeed changed. ‘By my Spirit says the Lord’.
God has said in effect; everything I said to you was true, and I mean to keep my promises also but now it is I who will uphold your end of the Covenant (since man could not).
This is why the New Covenant says not to covet, murder, or look upon a woman to lust, just as the Old Covenant Law did. The New Covenant says to Love your neighbor and God, and so fulfill the Law, not by the letter but as led by His Spirit.
The Old and New seem to have similarities, and some think that it is confusing, but one helpful way of understanding this would be to think of the United States bill of Rights and the English Bill of Rights, one is based on the other and although not the same they contain some things that are exactly the same. Just because you have a New Covenant does not mean that ’nothing’ in the Old Covenant can be included or accepted (this is what many people have been taught).
The New is just a new agreement, like a new lease. A new lease can have exactly the same conditions and considerations as the Old - or - it may have ‘new’ provisions or terms.
The Law was changed, and a New Covenant was made, but the purpose certainly has not changed (to increase their number, bless them and make them a righteous people), so also many of the laws have not changed, although the penalties, the power to do them and the motive has indeed changed. ‘By my Spirit says the Lord’.
God has said in effect; everything I said to you was true, and I mean to keep my promises also but now it is I who will uphold your end of the Covenant (since man could not).
This is why the New Covenant says not to covet, murder, or look upon a woman to lust, just as the Old Covenant Law did. The New Covenant says to Love your neighbor and God, and so fulfill the Law, not by the letter but as led by His Spirit.
Re: Are the festivals for today? Should we still be observing?
That was very good, but I'll add one more concept in the New Covenant that the Old one couldn't accomplish. The Old Covenant was made with a nation of people. Everyone in that nation was a member of the Old Covenant as long as they performed the works of the Law making them so (circumcision, Sabbath, etc.). As a result, the Old Covenant nation was full of unbelievers. The promise of the New Covenant is that only believers are included. It is a major upgrade and can be seen in the imagery of the New Jerusalem in both Isaiah 65 and Revelation 21. Instead of having a Jerusalem full of evil people the New Jerusalem is by definition only full of righteous people who work to heal the nations of their sin.jriccitelli wrote:Take your time Shaul, but I thought of still one more thing;
The Old and New seem to have similarities, and some think that it is confusing, but one helpful way of understanding this would be to think of the United States bill of Rights and the English Bill of Rights, one is based on the other and although not the same they contain some things that are exactly the same. Just because you have a New Covenant does not mean that ’nothing’ in the Old Covenant can be included or accepted (this is what many people have been taught).
The New is just a new agreement, like a new lease. A new lease can have exactly the same conditions and considerations as the Old - or - it may have ‘new’ provisions or terms.
The Law was changed, and a New Covenant was made, but the purpose certainly has not changed (to increase their number, bless them and make them a righteous people), so also many of the laws have not changed, although the penalties, the power to do them and the motive has indeed changed. ‘By my Spirit says the Lord’.
God has said in effect; everything I said to you was true, and I mean to keep my promises also but now it is I who will uphold your end of the Covenant (since man could not).
This is why the New Covenant says not to covet, murder, or look upon a woman to lust, just as the Old Covenant Law did. The New Covenant says to Love your neighbor and God, and so fulfill the Law, not by the letter but as led by His Spirit.
Doug
Re: Are the festivals for today? Should we still be observing?
As a result, the Old Covenant nation was full of unbelievers. The promise of the New Covenant is that only believers are included. It is a major upgrade
Re the Old Covenant being full of unbelievers , "thou shall not have any other gods before me" means one believes in God, so i think to truly be part of the Old Covenant there has to be an agreement between each party.
Re the Old Covenant being full of unbelievers , "thou shall not have any other gods before me" means one believes in God, so i think to truly be part of the Old Covenant there has to be an agreement between each party.
Re: Are the festivals for today? Should we still be observing?
In order to be in the nation of Israel under the Sinai Covenant you had to be born into it and circumcised or a proselyte. Assuming that the proselytes were genuine believers in God, the issue would be those who were born into it. In that case, other than following the rules to cut someone off for breaking the Law (which I'm not aware of being followed on a wide scale), everyone born to someone within the nation was also considered part of the nation. Here, it might help to imagine the Mosaic Law as a sort of constitution for a nation rather than a purely religious code. There seem to be numerous examples of people who existed throughout the history of Israel who were under the Mosaic Law but who either didn't believe in God at all or who were rebellious to the point that they should have been expelled from the nation. Speaking simply of the generation Christ dealt with he seems explicit that those who didn't know him didn't know the Father either. But, those people were under the sanction of the penalty clause of the Mosaic Law. Their destinies were to destruction by the sword for unbelief or rebellion per Deuteronomy 32 (the penalty clause of the national treaty between the nation and God). Unlike that system, the New Covenant doesn't have an eschatology (it won't end because it's part of a kingdom that will never end).steve7150 wrote:As a result, the Old Covenant nation was full of unbelievers. The promise of the New Covenant is that only believers are included. It is a major upgrade
Re the Old Covenant being full of unbelievers , "thou shall not have any other gods before me" means one believes in God, so i think to truly be part of the Old Covenant there has to be an agreement between each party.
Doug
Re: Are the festivals for today? Should we still be observing?
P.S., As I have mentioned elsewhere, this was the primary concern of Galatians that Luther got wrong when he confused "works of the law" for "works". Paul didn't want people (presumably Gentiles ignorant of this fact, but cajoled into it by Judaizers) to attempt to find salvation by identification with the Old Covenant because the Old Covenant didn't offer it. I wouldn't do anything to take Mosaic Covenant circumcision to join the nation of Israel under the Old Covenant to reach God because he was only truly available through faith like Abraham's. Works of the Law was a critical problem because by joining yourself to the Law to find God you were explicitly saying that you expected justification by identification with the nation and not identification with God personally. The Old Covenant had designed obsolescence and was quickly fading away in Paul's day.
Doug
Doug
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jriccitelli
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Re: Are the festivals for today? Should we still be observing?
(I saw your new post after i wrote this below, but here it is anyways, God Bless everyone)
Doug, I think know what you are saying, since I agreed with you, I think your referring to Paul when he said ‘but they did not pursue it by faith but as if it was by works’, and as a nation (or collectively as ‘humans’) they failed, but I will jump at the chance to agree with 7150 concerning them as individuales - many did believe as attested to by Hebrews 11 especially.
I personally hold that OT saints were saved by Grace, and through Faith. By offering the sacrifice God forgave, yet still it was accepted and applied by grace not merit, and to believe that God would forgive by offering a sacrifice was an act of faith in Gods promise and word. The mistake was to think that they could actually attain righteousness by ‘their’ deeds, and of course they often fell into insincere and unrepentant ritual. God often forgave, but it was ‘all’ based on the coming sacrifice of his own Son.
Doug, I think know what you are saying, since I agreed with you, I think your referring to Paul when he said ‘but they did not pursue it by faith but as if it was by works’, and as a nation (or collectively as ‘humans’) they failed, but I will jump at the chance to agree with 7150 concerning them as individuales - many did believe as attested to by Hebrews 11 especially.
I personally hold that OT saints were saved by Grace, and through Faith. By offering the sacrifice God forgave, yet still it was accepted and applied by grace not merit, and to believe that God would forgive by offering a sacrifice was an act of faith in Gods promise and word. The mistake was to think that they could actually attain righteousness by ‘their’ deeds, and of course they often fell into insincere and unrepentant ritual. God often forgave, but it was ‘all’ based on the coming sacrifice of his own Son.