Who is That Great Cloud of Witnesses?

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Michelle
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Re: Who is That Great Cloud of Witnesses?

Post by Michelle » Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:22 pm

Paidion, forgive me, I'm slow so I don't completely understand what you are saying. Here's what I understand (correct me, please, where I've gone off) and some of my own comments for good measure (please take with a grain of salt.)

1. The title of this thread asks "Who is that great cloud or witnesses?" In the opening post, you describe a good many preachers who say that these are the saints which "have gone on before..." Do you have a disagreement with these preachers so far? The people listed in Hebrews 11 have surely "gone on before" haven't they? In your explanation of the passage, you emphasize (with all-caps) that the great cloud ONLY refers to those listed before. Is this in opposition to those many preachers?

2. But your opening decription goes on: "... and who are now in heaven watching us and "cheering us on."" This is the part I cannot agree with because it bends my brain to figure out how this could possibly happen. I mean, even if you add on Great-Aunt Harriet and every other Christian who has lived and died, how could they possibly be watching all of us living all over the world in all the time zones at all times to witness our behavior? That is why I asked you if you wanted us to include our thoughts about what the listed saints are up to now. (Personally, I think they are awaiting the resurrection, unaware of what is occurring in our world, but I know this is controversial.)

3. Back to that emphasized word in your explanation. Why did you lay stress on the word 'only'. It seems to be to correct a misunderstanding of the passage that would be too inclusive. Why would this be so wrong? Here's my thinking:

First, the passage mentions some unnamed people. At the end of verse 32, it talks of ...Samuel and the prophets; verse 35 is even more vague with just 'women'; verse 36 starts with 'others' which could mean anyone, perhaps. There seems to be some anonymity in the passage, yet you seem to find it important to limit who is included.

Second, since the time of the writing of the book of Hebrews, many Christians have become "heroes of the faith." Can we not look to them for the same encouragement you mention in our struggle against sin so that we might be overcomes? Do you consider it inappropriate to the passage to include, for instance, the early church martyrs or those presently enduring persecution, to be participants in the "great cloud of witnesses"?

Third (and this is sort of contradictory to what I've just said), this is in the book of Hebrews and is about Old Testament Hebrew saints who did not live to see the promise of the Messiah, so perhaps it IS inappropriate to add to the list those who lived and died after the appearing of Jesus Christ. How can we possibly give up when we have seen the fulfillment which these saints waited for but did not receive in their lifetimes? Is that what you're driving home?

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steve
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Re: Who is That Great Cloud of Witnesses?

Post by steve » Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:19 pm

I guess I can see two questions relevant to this: 1) Who are the witnesses, and 3) in what sense are they called "witnesses"?

As for the first question, I have always gone with the party line that they are the saints mentioned in the previous chapter, though, I suppose, the writer might have in mind our earthly friends and others who watch our lives, who are to see our good works and glorify our Father in heaven. In other words, perhaps he only means the people all around us who are living in the same time and place as ourselves, so that they are "spectators" of our behavior (Matt.5:16; 1 Pet.2:12) and forming their opinions about Christ by how well we are running the race.

With reference to the second question, it is not clear that "witnesses" is intended to mean "spectators" at all. A witness is someone whose testimony is given in a court of law, or elsewhere (like on the street—e.g., John 1:15; Acts 4:33; Rev.11:3). Perhaps the memory of Old Testament saints' lives is thought to "bear testimony" in favor of living a life of faith (James 5:10,11,17).

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Paidion
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Re: Who is That Great Cloud of Witnesses?

Post by Paidion » Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:22 pm

Hi Michelle,
I will attempt to clarify. I agree with the following statement of Steve's:
Perhaps the memory of Old Testament saints' lives is thought to "bear testimony" in favor of living a life of faith (James 5:10,11,17).
That is exactly what I think the writer was doing. Since those saints were able to accomplish great things through faith, they bore witness to the fact that we also can accomplish great things through faith.
1. The title of this thread asks "Who is that great cloud or witnesses?" In the opening post, you describe a good many preachers who say that these are the saints which "have gone on before..." Do you have a disagreement with these preachers so far? The people listed in Hebrews 11 have surely "gone on before" haven't they? In your explanation of the passage, you emphasize (with all-caps) that the great cloud ONLY refers to those listed before. Is this in opposition to those many preachers?
Yes, I have a strong disagreement with those preachers. When they speak of "the saints who have gone on before" they have in mind a much broader set of people than those faith heroes of Hebrews 11. I believe the writer had in mind ONLY those men and women of many accomplishments through faith whom he specifies in chapter 11.
2. But your opening decription goes on: "... and who are now in heaven watching us and "cheering us on."" This is the part I cannot agree with because it bends my brain to figure out how this could possibly happen. I mean, even if you add on Great-Aunt Harriet and every other Christian who has lived and died, how could they possibly be watching all of us living all over the world in all the time zones at all times to witness our behavior? That is why I asked you if you wanted us to include our thoughts about what the listed saints are up to now. (Personally, I think they are awaiting the resurrection, unaware of what is occurring in our world, but I know this is controversial.)
I agree with everything you wrote in part 2, including the belief that they must await their resurrection and are unaware of the events of this world. Indeed, I go so far as to think that they do not even exist, and won't exist until God or Jesus raises them to life.

3. Back to that emphasized word in your explanation. Why did you lay stress on the word 'only'. It seems to be to correct a misunderstanding of the passage that would be too inclusive. Why would this be so wrong? Here's my thinking:

First, the passage mentions some unnamed people. At the end of verse 32, it talks of ...Samuel and the prophets; verse 35 is even more vague with just 'women'; verse 36 starts with 'others' which could mean anyone, perhaps. There seems to be some anonymity in the passage, yet you seem to find it important to limit who is included.
I didn't mean that the author meant only those whom he named, but to only those to whom he refers. I was stressing "only" in opposition to the misunderstanding that the author had in mind ALL people of faith who die, and are therefore up in heaven "witnessing" the events which take place on earth.
Second, since the time of the writing of the book of Hebrews, many Christians have become "heroes of the faith." Can we not look to them for the same encouragement you mention in our struggle against sin so that we might be overcomes? Do you consider it inappropriate to the passage to include, for instance, the early church martyrs or those presently enduring persecution, to be participants in the "great cloud of witnesses"?
Yes, of course, we can look to the many great heroes of the faith since that time whose accomplishment through faith are marvellous, and are a great encouragement to us all! Mother Theresa immediately comes to my mind---- and now Richard Wurmbrand. Of course there are many thousands of others. We can apply the passage to all of these, if we wish. What I was saying is that THE AUTHOR had in mind only those persons whom he mentions in chapter 11, including many of whom he thinks, but cannot name, or doesn't have time to name, or even mention.
Third (and this is sort of contradictory to what I've just said), this is in the book of Hebrews and is about Old Testament Hebrew saints who did not live to see the promise of the Messiah, so perhaps it IS inappropriate to add to the list those who lived and died after the appearing of Jesus Christ. How can we possibly give up when we have seen the fulfillment which these saints waited for but did not receive in their lifetimes? Is that what you're driving home?
I agree, of course, that the writer is saying that those heroes of faith did not have what we have in Christ, and yet were able to accomplish much through faith. So surely, we, with God's enabling grace, should be able to accomplish even more!

And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made complete. (Heb 11:39,40)

But no, that was not my main point. It was just that the author never DREAMED that such an interpretation as the aforementioned preachers give, would ever be made of his words—namely that this great cloud of witnesses are ALL saints who have ever died, and are observing (witnessing) all events on earth, encouraging the living saints, and cheering them on.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Michelle
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Re: Who is That Great Cloud of Witnesses?

Post by Michelle » Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:27 pm

Hi Steve, if by 'witness' we mean the latter definition (one who give testimony) could, perhaps, we do that for each other in the way you were describing how our friends and family are spectators to our lives? Two chapters before, the writer of Hebrews admonishes the believers not to forsake assembling together in order to encourage each other. So if I live my life in a way that causes my spectators to glorify the Father, and they live their lives in a way that causes me to do the same, we've also become witnesses, haven't we? Or maybe I'm reading way too much into the text. I dunno...

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Michelle
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Re: Who is That Great Cloud of Witnesses?

Post by Michelle » Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:30 pm

Hi Paidion, thanks so much! I think I agree with what you are stressing. I wonder what the motivation is for taking the view of those many preachers you speak of. If the saints are cheering us on, I can't really sense it (although maybe people with more refined spiritual sensitivities might??) If the thought that they are watching me is meant to curb bad behavior, that doesn't even work with children when it comes to the Santa-making-a-list myth.

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steve
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Re: Who is That Great Cloud of Witnesses?

Post by steve » Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:15 pm

Michelle,

Yes. Absolutely!

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Jepne
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Re: Who is That Great Cloud of Witnesses?

Post by Jepne » Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:12 pm

A little addendum here:

I have always loved this part of Hebrews 11-
Hebrews 11:39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised,
40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

verse 39 confounded me when I was 'working the Word' in my 'word of faith' days.
Then, "apart from us they should not be made perfect". If they were disembodied spirits floating around heaven watching us, they would have to have come into their heavenly perfection before us since we are obviously alive now and quite imperfect.

Now to take those verses to a different level - 'what was promised' was not the new washing machine they needed, but the advent of the Messiah! And what did the Messiah come for but that we would receive salvation, become transformed to His image - that kind of perfection.

But there is a problem with that, since we are enjoying the Messiah and His working in us to will and do His good pleasure, they are still at the level of maturity they were at when they died before they could have had the benefit of being re-born in Christ. But, if the level of faith to which they attained pre-Advent saved them (and it obviously was a pretty high level of faith) to the degree that we can obtain salvation, what difference does it make that Jesus came?

Well, now I have more questions than answers, for sure!
"Anything you think you know about God that you can't find in the person of Jesus, you have reason to question.” - anonymous

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Homer
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Re: Who is That Great Cloud of Witnesses?

Post by Homer » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:47 am

Jepne,

You wrote:
But, if the level of faith to which they attained pre-Advent saved them (and it obviously was a pretty high level of faith) to the degree that we can obtain salvation, what difference does it make that Jesus came?
That is no problem if you believe as I do that Jesus' death atoned for the sins of those who put their faith in God - all the saints from Adam down to us. Otherwise, for those heroes of faith in Hebrews 11 Christ died for nothing.

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Paidion
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Re: Who is That Great Cloud of Witnesses?

Post by Paidion » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:02 am

But, if the level of faith to which they attained pre-Advent saved them (and it obviously was a pretty high level of faith) to the degree that we can obtain salvation, what difference does it make that Jesus came?
Well, it seems obvious that "the level of faith to which they attained pre-Advent" did not save them, according to the verse you quoted:

...that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

That is, apart from us they should not be made complete. And a person must be complete before he is full saved (salvation being a process). When the resurrection take place those OT saints along with all other saints who have died, will be raised together, and will perhaps together become complete at that time. I say "perhaps" because I must also recognize that EVERYONE will be salted with fire (or purified)—Mark 9:49
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Jepne
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Re: Who is That Great Cloud of Witnesses?

Post by Jepne » Sat Mar 01, 2014 2:47 pm

Paidion, so, according to what you said, they could not have been completed, perfected saints, coming from the throne room of God to surround and encourage us. And, it is not a 'done deal' because - it is not done yet.

Homer, believers in God in Jesus' time had to repent and be baptized, and others at that time did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah. So the Hebrews 11 saints' fate was not sealed at their deaths - you are saying, in a sense, God 'knew their hearts' and made provision for them to have the salvation of the Messiah?
"Anything you think you know about God that you can't find in the person of Jesus, you have reason to question.” - anonymous

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