I think it might be helpful to note that I took the conversation between Wesley and Simeon from a biography on Charles Simeon done by John Piper in Sermon format.
found at:
http://www.desiringgod.org/library/biog ... imeon.html
In this sermon, John Piper appears to commend the way Charles Simeon held his Calvinist views in a way that recommends other Calvinists to do likewise.
Also, if you go to http://www.desiringgod.org you can see what percentage of John Piper's teachings are used to persuade people to some Calvinist agenda... not many. At least in comparison with his agenda to try and persuade people to live and die on the mission field bringing the lost sheep to Christ (not the type of Calvinism that is often put into view by an Arminian). I think in a random selection of his teachings you will find many of his sermons used to urge and convince people to give their lives in bringing the gospel to the darkest places of the world, preaching repentance towards God and faith in Jesus Christ.
I esteem no man. However, I feel pained when I see a brother or sister is held at bay due to possible innacuracies when the Lord may be using them to minister to the body of Christ in a profound way.
p.s. - Steve, I heard the same story, probably from the same source about the Piper Conference. I didn't however hear that it was at a missions conference that this statement was put forth. Maybe one of us can verify that... it certainly might add some helpful perspective for me if that were the case.
Thankfully His,
Jeffrey Jacob Lacine
Looking for a non-Calvinist Church near Kansas City
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_Anonymous
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Hi Jeff,
As I indicated, I am not sure that the conference in question was a missions conference. The reason that I assume it to have been is that I would not think that the person who attended it and gave the report would have been interested in attending any other kind of conference at Piper's church. I could be wrong on this detail. I simply don't know.
It was not my purpose to malign Piper, or any other Calvinist, but only to illustrate why a non-Calvinist might look for a non-Calvinist church. No one at this thread attacked Calvinists. It is just that you did not seem to know why the original poster, who had been attending a Calvinist church, would mention "non-Calvinism" as a criterion for the next church he joins.
Selecting a "church home" is not the same thing as restricting the range of people with whom you are willing to fellowship. Christians should gladly fellowship with other Christians of diverse traditions. Joining an assembly, however, requires wisdom and forethought...if for no other reason than that, ideally, the church you join will also be the one in which you will raise your children.
The people in that church will be the Christians that you fellowship with more often than with others, and there is a good chance that your circle of closest friends, and those of your wife and children, will largely be drawn from the membership of the same church.
When you join and regularly attend a church, it is very helpful if the sermons largely agree with your own convictions, since you don't want to spend many Sunday afternoons de-programming your kids from what they heard from the pulpit that morning. Doing so may, in their immature minds, cause them to reflect negatively on the pastor, simply because "My Daddy says he's wrong." This may make them reluctant to receive anyhting from his mnistry, and may even translate into suspicion of pastors in general. I don't think this is good.
Also, in the course of twenty years or more in a church that believes differently that you do, you should anticipate that times will arise, in casual fellowship with other members, or with the pastor himself, when you will be asked, "What did you think of that sermon?" It is best, at times like that, if you can say how much you agree with the message and heartily support the preacher for preaching it. If you are in a church that disagrees fundamentally with your view of God, salvation, etc., you had better be adept at abruptly and inconspicuously changing the subject.
I have been in churches all my life--many of which were congregations where I was not in full agreement with the official theological stances of the churches. I had to bite my tongue so frequently that I am lucky still to have one. As a teacher myself, it is inevitable that my views will be discovered, in time, in some forum or other, and it most convenient if those views are not found to be contrary to those of the church leadership. Most convenient, I mean, for maintaining unity and good will. When one's beliefs are are variance with the viewpoints of his church, one is fortunate if he has a rare, mature, secure pastor, who knows that these differences are not central to the matter of discipleship, and who is not threatened by having an articulate spokesman for the contrary view circulating among the sheep. Such pastors are rare. I think I have met two or three like this in my lifetime. Most will regard you as a threat--or even a "wolf."
The bottom line is, except in very unusual cases, finding a church that agrees with your view of God is a very wise thing, as opposed to the alternative. Calvinists and Arminians share many views in common with each other, but not the same view of what kind of God we are worshiping, or what His heart is toward all sinners [When you meet Calvinists who say that God loves everybody, you are seeing a person who knows that he cannot deny a plain teaching of scripture, but who affirms this only at the expense going contrary to his own theological system, which does not agree with this].
. It's really that simple. I applaud a non-Calvinist who can get along in a Calvinist church without causing strife or compromising his own integrity, but why go looking for the least ideal situation, if better options exist?
As I indicated, I am not sure that the conference in question was a missions conference. The reason that I assume it to have been is that I would not think that the person who attended it and gave the report would have been interested in attending any other kind of conference at Piper's church. I could be wrong on this detail. I simply don't know.
It was not my purpose to malign Piper, or any other Calvinist, but only to illustrate why a non-Calvinist might look for a non-Calvinist church. No one at this thread attacked Calvinists. It is just that you did not seem to know why the original poster, who had been attending a Calvinist church, would mention "non-Calvinism" as a criterion for the next church he joins.
Selecting a "church home" is not the same thing as restricting the range of people with whom you are willing to fellowship. Christians should gladly fellowship with other Christians of diverse traditions. Joining an assembly, however, requires wisdom and forethought...if for no other reason than that, ideally, the church you join will also be the one in which you will raise your children.
The people in that church will be the Christians that you fellowship with more often than with others, and there is a good chance that your circle of closest friends, and those of your wife and children, will largely be drawn from the membership of the same church.
When you join and regularly attend a church, it is very helpful if the sermons largely agree with your own convictions, since you don't want to spend many Sunday afternoons de-programming your kids from what they heard from the pulpit that morning. Doing so may, in their immature minds, cause them to reflect negatively on the pastor, simply because "My Daddy says he's wrong." This may make them reluctant to receive anyhting from his mnistry, and may even translate into suspicion of pastors in general. I don't think this is good.
Also, in the course of twenty years or more in a church that believes differently that you do, you should anticipate that times will arise, in casual fellowship with other members, or with the pastor himself, when you will be asked, "What did you think of that sermon?" It is best, at times like that, if you can say how much you agree with the message and heartily support the preacher for preaching it. If you are in a church that disagrees fundamentally with your view of God, salvation, etc., you had better be adept at abruptly and inconspicuously changing the subject.
I have been in churches all my life--many of which were congregations where I was not in full agreement with the official theological stances of the churches. I had to bite my tongue so frequently that I am lucky still to have one. As a teacher myself, it is inevitable that my views will be discovered, in time, in some forum or other, and it most convenient if those views are not found to be contrary to those of the church leadership. Most convenient, I mean, for maintaining unity and good will. When one's beliefs are are variance with the viewpoints of his church, one is fortunate if he has a rare, mature, secure pastor, who knows that these differences are not central to the matter of discipleship, and who is not threatened by having an articulate spokesman for the contrary view circulating among the sheep. Such pastors are rare. I think I have met two or three like this in my lifetime. Most will regard you as a threat--or even a "wolf."
The bottom line is, except in very unusual cases, finding a church that agrees with your view of God is a very wise thing, as opposed to the alternative. Calvinists and Arminians share many views in common with each other, but not the same view of what kind of God we are worshiping, or what His heart is toward all sinners [When you meet Calvinists who say that God loves everybody, you are seeing a person who knows that he cannot deny a plain teaching of scripture, but who affirms this only at the expense going contrary to his own theological system, which does not agree with this].
. It's really that simple. I applaud a non-Calvinist who can get along in a Calvinist church without causing strife or compromising his own integrity, but why go looking for the least ideal situation, if better options exist?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
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_ryanfromcollegestation
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- Location: College Station, TX
Thanks
Steve,
This last post was a great explanation - definite wisdom there in wanting to maintain "the unity of the brethren" and "peace with all men, as far as it depends on you". It is very tempting when one is delving deeply and passionately into the scriptures to be arrogant and condescending towards those in authority.
I'm firmly convinced that God hates rebellion (even as the sin of witchcraft) and ill-speaking against those who are in authority, especially those who God has placed to be our authority for that time. Although we may have the correct view or interpretation, and there is a great need for biblical accountability and scholarship, we must guard our heart with all diligence, lest bitterness, greed, or other sin be found lurking.
Being placed under difficult authority is a common test that I believe the Lord gives believers to test their faithfulness to Jesus. Indeed I've found it true, David gets placed under Saul to get the Saul out of David.
Recently a book has been written on this subject entitled "Stop Dating the Church" by Joshua Harris. Although I've only begun reading it, my wife has, and from a brief perusal it seems a good, brief guide into finding and committing to a well-balanced, scriptural church that desires the communion of God and the saints.
As far as churches in Kansas City, I've only attended one: the International House of Prayer Church. Many may have heard of Mike Bickle and may agree or disagree with him in some ways, but the time I spent there was very encouraging and edifying. Although it was a weekend and during a conference, I was blessed by both the times of worship and speaking.
May the Lord lead us all, and may we be obedient.
This last post was a great explanation - definite wisdom there in wanting to maintain "the unity of the brethren" and "peace with all men, as far as it depends on you". It is very tempting when one is delving deeply and passionately into the scriptures to be arrogant and condescending towards those in authority.
I'm firmly convinced that God hates rebellion (even as the sin of witchcraft) and ill-speaking against those who are in authority, especially those who God has placed to be our authority for that time. Although we may have the correct view or interpretation, and there is a great need for biblical accountability and scholarship, we must guard our heart with all diligence, lest bitterness, greed, or other sin be found lurking.
Being placed under difficult authority is a common test that I believe the Lord gives believers to test their faithfulness to Jesus. Indeed I've found it true, David gets placed under Saul to get the Saul out of David.
Recently a book has been written on this subject entitled "Stop Dating the Church" by Joshua Harris. Although I've only begun reading it, my wife has, and from a brief perusal it seems a good, brief guide into finding and committing to a well-balanced, scriptural church that desires the communion of God and the saints.
As far as churches in Kansas City, I've only attended one: the International House of Prayer Church. Many may have heard of Mike Bickle and may agree or disagree with him in some ways, but the time I spent there was very encouraging and edifying. Although it was a weekend and during a conference, I was blessed by both the times of worship and speaking.
May the Lord lead us all, and may we be obedient.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"Oh! How great is the love the Father has lavished upon us, that we should be called the children of God. And that is what we are!" 1 John 3:1
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_Some Partial-Pret guy
- Posts: 17
- Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 2:35 pm
Yeah, for example, I live in the South (read Disp Pre-Trib Futurist PreMill) and I relate the best to the Baptist view on most other doctrines.
I'm a young-earther also, but that's another post, he he.
And, being a Partial-Pret AMill, I stand out like Michael Moore in the Oval Office.
I am in the process of joing a new church (interdenom) since leaving a Southern "Let's-Jump-On-Every-UnBiblical-Fad,Book,and Conference" Baptist church and I'd have to say that it's been a tough search.
If it wasn't for Calvanism, and that a HUGE IF, an old fashioned Presbyterian church would prob suit me good, but thankfully I found another solution.
So God bless you in your search my friend, God KNOWS how hard it is, and HE will help you find a place to worship and serve him with your talents and treasure.
I'm a young-earther also, but that's another post, he he.
And, being a Partial-Pret AMill, I stand out like Michael Moore in the Oval Office.
I am in the process of joing a new church (interdenom) since leaving a Southern "Let's-Jump-On-Every-UnBiblical-Fad,Book,and Conference" Baptist church and I'd have to say that it's been a tough search.
If it wasn't for Calvanism, and that a HUGE IF, an old fashioned Presbyterian church would prob suit me good, but thankfully I found another solution.
So God bless you in your search my friend, God KNOWS how hard it is, and HE will help you find a place to worship and serve him with your talents and treasure.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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_Jeffrey Jacob Lacine
- Posts: 18
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 2:25 pm
- Location: Oregon
Steve,
Thank you for your insight, especially concerning children. I think that does add another demension to the whole topic. I do not have children yet, so my perspective is limited... However, my wife and I are expecting our first in September, so it is important for me to think about and work through these issues. Thank you for your dialogue. It could perhaps save my children from having some skewed perceptions about God that could have been easily avoided.
Blessings,
Jeff
Thank you for your insight, especially concerning children. I think that does add another demension to the whole topic. I do not have children yet, so my perspective is limited... However, my wife and I are expecting our first in September, so it is important for me to think about and work through these issues. Thank you for your dialogue. It could perhaps save my children from having some skewed perceptions about God that could have been easily avoided.
Blessings,
Jeff
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
May the Lamb that was slain receive the reward of His sufferings,
Jeff Lacine
Jeff Lacine