The Narrow Path Ministries

We have many discussions with great difficulty in finding agreement (re the subject of baptism under "Misc. Theological Topics", for example). It seems to me part of the difficulty arises from differing ideas of what faith is.

In reading three books I have regarding the cultural values of the first century, a different perspective on faith is presented. While our culture is individualistic, theirs was group oriented and to them faith meant primarily loyalty, reliability, or faithfulness, as it most obviously means when "pistis" is used of God in Romans 3:3.

In the "Handbook of Biblical Social Values" by Pilch & Malina, the following statements are found: "The nouns 'faith', 'belief', 'fidelity', 'faithfulness', as well as the verbs 'to have faith' and 'to believe', refer to the social glue that binds one person to another. This bond is the social, externally manifested, emotionally rooted behavior of loyality, commitment and solidarity." Whereas "In American culture, faith has a strong intellectual character. It is an act of the mind."

In "Portraits of Paul" by Malina and Neyrey, the folowing statement is found: "We are so accustomed to translating the word 'pistis' as 'faith', referring to religious creed, that we tend to miss its basic meaning of 'faithfulness' or 'loyalty'."

Then in "Honor, Patronage, Kinship, and Purity; Unlocking New Testament Culture", by deSilva it is stated that faith (pistis) had a wide variety of meanings depending on context, ranging from dependability on one side (God , for example) to showing loyalty and commitment on the other (us). He gives as a second meaning the familiar sense of "trust".

In case you think their ideas are off the mark, I found interesting their discussion about the value of "honor" in the culture of the east. Where we think of wealth in terms of money or possessions, they count their riches in terms of "honor" among their group. In thinking about this it explains why Saddam refused an opportunity to leave Iraq with his riches intact and go into exile; he would have lost honor among his people which was more important than anything to him.

I have digressed. My point in this post is to get some discussion going regarding what faith actually is. Re the discussion regarding baptism, I do not see baptism as a "work" at all while others, most notably Calvinists, see anything we do, up to and sometimes including faith, as a work. Are we in the west confused as to what faith actually is in the biblical sense? What say you?

Hello Homer,

To me faith is very personel. Just as our relationship with Christ is. So whether you live in the east or west, as a Chrisitan I think speaking as a Christian to another I think the "sameness" we have is that we both are filled with the Holy spirit. And in that we just"know" what faith is.Counseled by the same spirit.That is what gives us our commonality.

Then from there it may include how we interprut it applied to our social circles, family upbringing,church we grew up in or one we didn't, country we live in etc. I think faith applied (the meaning of the "word", not including the spiritual aspect of it anyways) outside of Christianity is going to be more geographically driven, cultural,lore or just what websters dictionary defines it as in understanding because it is not ruled by the Holy Spirit.

I personally believe my faith comes from my willingness to open myself up to the Lord and believe His word and embace it by following it.I am filled by his Spirit. Not as "works" like my ambition is to get something back when I do things. But it is motivated by love ( because He has taught me how to love), which in turn produces more faith and the relationship with the Lord continues to deepen.

I know alot of folks can stretch their minds out alot further on this site regarding authors etc. to explain the more defined intellectual meaning of it than I can. So if that is what you wanted I don't think I fill the bill. I do enjoy reading everyones comments etc. though . But in the end, the Lord who speaks to me in my spirit through His word, that is what teaches me the most. And in that my "faith" grows. I pray alot and spend time in just listening. And as my faith grows it developes more perseverance in me to walk out my life and stay more level as I go and encounter the things of this world and beyond.

I can honestly say with a happier heart, because of my "faith".."yeah God".

I'm not sure if this anwered your questions but its my piece of the pie from one believer to another.......Glow

Homer,
I don't know what to say except that I agree with you. The way I see it, everyone does works. Either they come from a heart who's faith is in God, or they come from a heart who's faith is hardened against God. Our outward actions declare the intent of the heart.

About your comment about Calvinists, some of them seem very fearful about works. Some of them equate our exhorting others to do good works with working in the flesh. Paul never seemed concerned that when he exhorted people (who were already converted) to do good works that they be careful or be overly worried about if they are doing their good works "correctly". It seems that problem, that is, the problem with the intent of the heart should have been taken care of at conversion.

Hello Homer,

One meaning is belief or trust that God has the power to accomplish his will in my life. God doesn't expect me to believe things without evidence but persuades me that he "is" and does according to his wishes. Sometimes I don't know what he's up to but I've come to understand that he has a different time perspective than my own. Based upon this faith, I hope expectantly for answers to prayer again understanding that his answers may irritate me. When irritated, I often find myself in the woodshed being corrected by the God in whom I trust. I know he loves me because he corrects me rather than casting me away. When I listen, he gives evidence of his trustworthiness. When I don't listen, He still gives the same evidence. He is loyal to me first--even when his loyalty is convicting.

livingink

Hi Homer,

I guess I'm a little confused at what you're trying to say here. It seems like you are saying that "faith" and "faithfulness" are the same thing. I would agree that "faith" naturally produces "faithfulness", but I wouldn't say that "faith" is the same as "faithfulness". I think the fullness of faith (faithfulness) is the good works that faith produces. I wouldn't say faith is a work, but in my mind, faithfulness is the sum of one's works that are produced by faith. This seems to be the point James is making in the latter part of chapter 2 of his epistle. Also the author of Hebrews seems to be making this point in chapter 11. I still believe faith is something different than it's product faithfulness (i.e. baptism, alms, prayer, etc.).

The word faith (pistis) seems to be used interchangeably with belief in scripture (at least in some cases), and it's even used as "assurance" in one case (Acts 17:31). I would hardly say that assurance could be described in any terms that include an action like baptism.

I guess I'm missing the relation that you're making between "faith" and baptism, unless you say that baptism can be equated with "faithfulness", then I would agree with you. I see baptism as a part of the whole of one's faithfulness to God.

Maybe you could expound more on your thesis so I can understand more exactly what you're trying to get across. I can be very slow to understand sometimes.

Lord bless.

Christopher,

I am trying to understand the difference in faith and faithfulness, if any. The authors I cited insist they had the same meaning in the culture of the first century east. I have long thought we, in many cases, make a false division between the meaning of things (faith and works).

For a biblical example, note Heb. 3:18-19:

"And to whom did He swear that they should not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient (apeitheo). And so we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief (apistia)."

In v.18 those who were denied entrance into His rest are described as disobedient. The Greek word apeitheo, according to Zodhiates, means "Not to believe, to disbelieve implying disobedience also....The above two meanings seem almost to coincide". [In John 3:36 we find the same Greek word used. "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey(apeitheo) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."]

In v.19 the cause of their inability is assigned to unbelief. The Greek word apistia, according to Zodhiates, means "faithlessness or uncertainity, distrust, unbelief."

I maintain that actions have meaning. Sometimes things we do have the meaning of faith, sometimes they mean our confidence rests upon our performance.

Consider Titus 1:16: "They profess (confess) to know God, but by their deeds (works) they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient.... In this case we find their works had the meaning of unfaithfulness or unbelief.

I believe if there is a line between faith and faithfulness, its a mighty fine line indeed.

All quotes from NASB.

Homer,

Since we are each essentially ego-centric (that is, we evaluate information through the lens of our own personal and cultural experience) we forget that the Bible is a cross-cultural communication. As a consequence, we may import as much (or more) meaning into our reading of the Bible as we export from it.

I concur that we may be ascribing meaning to "faith" based on our unstated modern cultural assumptions rather than determining the meaning (or meanings) of "faith" as used in the scripture.

Some of the unstated assumptions we may bring to the text are:

- "Faith" is something not based on reason
- "Faith" takes place in the heart and only in the heart
- "Faith" is something that occurs in an instant rather that a continuing experience
- "Faith" must be planted in us by divine action
- "Faith" is essentially trust
- "Faith" is essentially obedience
- "Faith" is essentially belief (i.e. the acknowlegement of a fact)
- "Faith" is antithetical to works
- "Faith" proceeds works and is demonstrated in works
- "Faith" is in a different catergory than works
- "Faith" is embodied by works
- "Faith" is embodied by certain works, but is nullified by certain other works

And the list goes on and on.

SamIAm,

Are you saying that even though some of these assumptions are true, we need to make sure they are truly biblical and not just cultural?

-Rae

Rae,

Exactly so. Otherwise, we read the word "faith" and think any number of things that are not intended by the writer.

Hi Homer,

I must confess that I'm having a problem understanding this. Maybe I'm just dull, and a little conditioned by the times and culture we live in. But it seems to me that a distinction of some kind is made between faith and works. I look at the following passage and I have a hard time drawing any other conclusion:

James 2:20-26
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
NKJV

The "works" he is talking about is Abrahams obedience, I believe. And why was he obedient? Because he had the faith to trust God.

This is the statement I can't quite wrap my mind around:

I maintain that actions have meaning. Sometimes things we do have the meaning of faith, sometimes they mean our confidence rests upon our performance.

I guess I'm still not seeing how actions have meaning since the same action can have completely opposite motives. If two Christians get baptized, one can be doing it for God, and the other could be doing it to please someone else (parent, fiance, etc). So, how does the action have the meaning of faith?

In my mind, words have meanings, but actions seem to be an external clue of what is in the heart, not necessarily a guaranteed indicator.

Am I missing something?