sleep or new life after death

[Guest]

Jesusfollower,

You wrote to Homer:

"Your constant berating of my sources do nothing but to show your hatred of the truth."

This verbal abuse is unacceptable here. I am not sure why you call yourself "Jesusfollower," as you are as lacking in Jesus' Spirit as anyone I have encountered here. You might consider whether your using this label might be taking the name of the Lord in vain. Judging from the nature of your posts, it would appear that you are a "T&T Follower" more than a Jesus follower.

While I disagree with many of your opinions, you are welcome to continue posting here if you behave more acceptably. Otherwise, I will have to ask you to refraion from posting here. I am in the position to make such decisions here.

[Guest]

That was a bit strong on my part, I apologize for the wording of the truth as I see it. But as I see it, a couple of you can call me a non Christian and not a Jesus Follower, because of my non-conformity to your Orthodox Ideas and it is OK and doesn't draw this kind of response from the board mediator. I'm simply bringing you another view point and source's of well studied, well written, thorough commentary. The subjects are much more complicated than simply cut and dried, because of translation, transmission, and understanding what is written. Complicated by tradition. Again I apologize for saying you hate the truth Homer, I know in my heart that is not true.
Thank you Steve, for the strong Reproof.
Now can we all just get along and agree on everything.
P.S. Were the Jews following Moses or God? were the 1st century Christians following Paul or Jesus? When you are following men who are following Jesus are you following Jesus?

[Guest]

JF,



It's not what you believe, but how you say and it and how you come across. Paidon has a different view on most biblical concepts, some I agree with, but he is able to relay his ideas in a humble and peaceful manner in the posts I have read.

I don't know if you entirely realize it or not, but you have an "I have all the answers, why don't you idiots see this" type of attitude. Please, I don't mean this as an insult, but that is how you come across. It's abrasive and not productive. I realize people can get a little worked up about these issues, and all of us can get a little frustrated, whether or not we express it in our words in here or not. Just try to take a more humble approach (there are some verses from Paul that many have posted that speak of this, but can't remember them right now) when discussing these issues.

We will never agree on everything and especially not at the same point in time in our walk with Christ. The faster all of us realize this, the better. I hope you will pray about this JF. Again, I am not standing on a soapbox talking down to you and I hope you don’t see it that way.

[Guest]

To All

I don't know but I think online boards etc because they are missing the person and their personalities ,the individual spirit you pick up face to face, can all be conscrewed a little. I find many reactions from folks on this site that others could be taken offensively or negative. But I choose to take the choice that they are just sounding colder or negative because of this lack of full human reaction. Not to say out and out harsh words are more obvious but I just wanted to add this.

Thanks and I hope this is not considered chatting but help. Glow

[Guest]

Now, what of the Scripture in 1 Tim. 6:16 speaking of God, who alone has immortality? The Scripture applies mortal and immortality to one's bodily condition. It is the body that is mortal, never the soul, or spirit. For example, Paul writes in 1 Cor. 15: this mortal will put on immortality, speaking of the resurrection of our bodies. Likewise, in 1 Tim. 6:16, he's speaking of Jesus as the immortal God/man. Spirit, by its own nature, is a deathless entity. God is spirit, and so are angels. God is spirit and fashioned man in the image of Himself, and, while God has always existed, no beginning or end, he has given mankind a limited similarity, like Himself, something that lives on. The body is described as mortal the soul is never described in these terms. Paul states this mortal must put on immortality (1 Cor.15:53). He is speaking of a resurrected body just as it was said in 2 Pt.1:13 to put off this tent as a temporary dwelling. In. Rom. 6:9: "Knowing that Christ having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over him." Therefore 1 Tim.6:16 means he alone has immortality as his nature and being the first fruit raised in the resurrection.

by Mike Oppenheimer

[Guest]

It is the body that is mortal, never the soul, or spirit.

Pure Greek thought, and gnostic thought, which have crept into Christianity.

Biblically, we man doesn't have a soul. Rather he is a soul!

Yahweh God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Gen 2:7

Or as the RSV has it: "... man became a living being".
The meaning of "soul" is "being".

"The soul that sinneth shall surely die."

If the soul is natually immortal, how can it die?

Now, what of the Scripture in 1 Tim. 6:16 speaking of God, who alone has immortality? The Scripture applies mortal and immortality to one's bodily condition.

Oh? Really? So is it God's "bodily condition" that is immortal?
The scripture states that God is spirit (not body).

[Guest]

I see in the scripture man was formed, made and created. A three part being, body,soul, spirit in Genesis. There is no indication that the any of the three parts continue to survive in a conscious state without the other. However there is evidence that the body and the soul can exists in a conscious state without a spirit. The soul is the animation life, the spirit allows us to freely communicate with God as his children.

1 Corinthians 2:14-15 (New International Version)
14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:

Adam lost his spirit, Jesus regained that spirit for those that believe in him. Incorruptible seed, making those that believe, children of God once again. Adam lost it as well as all the O/T believers. Jesus had the full measure which he pours out to all that believe in him. Hallelujah

[Guest]

I could cite many proof texts...but you have your own Bibles to do a Beraean check on what I am about to say on this topic.

It is the position of My Studied Faith and that of my Ancient Tradition that a Human Being IS a SOUL (Psyche) comprised of a sentient SPIRIT (Pnuema) united to it's proper and corresponding BODY (SARX). This Composition of Spirit (Being) and Flesh (Form) is what we recognize as the rational Soul.

Our Spirit is the "User" and our Brain is the "Computer" which we use to experience and engage this Physical World. Our Bodies are the biological Vehicle in which our Spirit's experience form, shape and full experience in this realm...thus our Spirit is united to our Body to establish a mortal Soul which manifests the Spirit of our Mind and Personality. At the dissolution of this Union the "Soul" as such perishes and the Biological "Form" returns to the organic elements it was taken from.

The disembodied Spirit is then ushered into the "Unseen" world of the dead (i.e. Sheol/Hades), where some will enter into the peaceful Paradise, known also as the 3rd Heaven in Hebraic Cosmology, and they rest and enjoy cessation from their earthly labors, awaiting their future Resurrection into Immortal Life with God in the New Jerusalem which presently awaits us in the 6th Heaven.

Others are taken into the Prison House of Sheol to toil until they are Resurrected to stand before God and are Judged according to their Works under God's Law...after being found guilty they will acknowledge their guilt and declare Messiah to be True and the Living God, and then they shall proceed to their everlasting fate: The Second Death in Gehinnom.

In Sheol the Prison House and Paradise are separated by a vast Canyon which no one can cross over. The Lower plain was created originally for the Fallen Angels (i.e. Beni Elohim), but is now also for all lost Spirits who are awaiting their adjudication before the Great White Throne of God. The Great Canyon has the Fiery Lake of Gehinnom boiling at it's bottom, and it makes the Prison House of Sheol a place of great parching heat. Paradise is located on the other Canyon's Side, higher up were it is warm and pleasant....this spiritual Eden is where all the repentant spirits from the Beginning until the Second Advent are kept to await their reward in Messiah. It is a Beautiful And Lush Tropical place Guarded by Cherubim and illuminated by the Glory of God who walks among them in the Person of Messiah.

The Radiance of God is also seen in the Prison House, and thus wailing and gnashing of teeth occurs there...for even in Hell God cannot be escaped from.....Gehinnom's fire scorches their Prison House and the Light of God can be seen across the Great Divide to their misery.

At the First Resurrection the Paradise of the 3rd Heaven will be emptied of it's inhabitance who shall then receive their Rewards in Messiah and then enter New Jerusalem in their Immortal Bodies.

At the Second Resurrection the Prison House shall be emptied as Satan, the Fallen Angels, the Two Beasts and all lost souls shall be brought into the High Court of God and their convictions made evident...then the Prison House and it's Territory shall crumble into the Lake of Fire Below and all who once dwelt therein shall also be cast into Gehinnim's depths for all eternity, and their Destruction shall be final. And then shall arise a New Heaven and a New Earth for the New Jerusalem and it's Immortal Citizenry to inhabit forever and ever. And Temptation, Sin, Death and Sheol shall exist no more, and God will be all in all. We shall be His Priestly Children and He shall be our God and Father forever and ever, Amen.

In Messiah,
Rt. .Rev. +Kenneth Huffman

[Guest]

Sounds a lot like a Greek Myth to me. What do you think the 1 Corinthians Passage I cited is talking about? Priestly?

[Guest]

Which Greek Myth do you refer to? Homer's Illiad or someone else's?

"Those {individuals} who do not have the {Holy} Spirit cannot receive the Gifts of God's {Holy} Spirit, for these {Gifts} are nonsense to these {people}, and they are unable to {even} comprehend them because these {Gifts} are spiritually discerned.
Those who are have the {Holy} Spirit can discern all {kinds of} things, and they themselves need not rely upon someone else's discernment."
(My Translation from Nestle-Aland's "NOVUM TESTAMENTUM GRAECE" Edition: XXVI)

I do not see your point. Spiritual Gifts allow those filled with the Holy Spirit to discern the validity or falsehood of prophecies, visions, miracles and the proper sense of various Scriptures. The very notion of the Holy Spirit and the Charismata is nonsense to the non believing sceptic..for they are unregenerate and thus lack spiritual awareness. If one desires the Gifts of God, one must have God's Spirit dwelling within in order to experience such divine phenomenon. This is the clear meaning of Paul in this passage...what has this to do with the topic at hand?

Do you imply that we are unspiritual and you are the spiritual one here, therefore implying that we have missed the boat on this topic and you have not? If this is so, it not only is a misuse of Holy Scripture (i.e. proof texting as a means of defending your pretext) and subtle jab at those you do not agree with and those who do not rely upon you for discerning such matters of Faith.

I admit to having studied both Koine Greek, The Koine Greek LXX & Koine Greek New Testament, as well as Greek Myths and Philosophers like Socrates, Plato and Aristotle. But I have also studied Hebrew, the Hebraic Traditions, Beliefs, Cosmology and Oral Law. I have studied may things which surround the First Temple, Second Temple and Patristic eras of Judeo-Christian History. That was a necessity in my Seminary training for ministerial service. But it is the Holy Spirit and the Holy Scriptures which I depend upon for Guidance and Discernment in all things. I hold fast to that which proves to be True and reject as Error all things that prove to be Falsehood.

Man is a Soul (Psyche) which is composed of a created rational/sentient Spirit (Pneuma) which inhabits it's created irrational/emotional biological Body (Sarx). This Physiological Union is the foundation of our Human personality, feelings and the Spirit of the Mind (Nous). When Humanity (i.e. Adam & Havah) where in God's Grace and He dwelt within them, they were complete (i.e. perfect). It is God who places the rational spirit in man while in the womb, so says the Prophet.

At death the silver cord is severed (i.e. the union of Spirit and Body is severed), the golden bowl is shattered (i.e. Brain activity ceases), the pail is cracked at the fountain (i.e. Heart activity ceases), the wheel is broken at the well (i.e. Blood flow ceases), and the dust returns to the earth from whence it came (i.e. the Body dissolves into it's organic elements) and the spirit returns to God who gave it (i.e. the spirit returns to God who assigns it to Sheol's Prison or to Paradise's Garden to await the Resurrection).

Man is not a mere Biological life form which comes to it's conclusion as physical death, for if this were true Resurrection would be a mere Replication and not a Restoration of that which continues to exist is an inferior state. Man was made a Pnuemobiological Life form (i.e. Spirit Being in a Biological Form) and that is our Divine destiny, though perfected in an Immortal State.

Those who claim man is merely another a biological life form (soul), like animals, though unique in that we are Rational Creatures who can create technologies, understand Science, Mathematics, Spirituality and can change and dominate animals and nature...are Materialist like the Sadducees. Yet they must admit to the Resurrection because Messiah declared it and evidenced it in Himself. But they err in that they deny that humanity has a sentient and rational spiritual being. They therefore do not understand the Incarnation either.

We are created spirits incarnated through human sexual reproduction. Messiah is the Eternal Spirit incarnated without human sexual reproduction, but by immaculate conception and asexual reproduction allowed by the power of God's Holy Spirit. Messiah is fully Human (i.e. a sentient spirit/biological body union= A Living Human Soul) and fully God (i.e. Eternal & Uncreated Divine Spirit). This is Orthodox Anthropology and the basis of Orthodox Christiology....yet those who deny Man is a Spirit being in a Biological Form deny the very real meaning and miracle of the Incarnation of the Word.

Of Such are the Various Trinitarian and Arian Adventist Sects. They admit that man is a Soul, but err on the constitution and anthropology of that Soul. God Himself says," My Soul is weary...." in the Prophets, thus Soul can refer to the Spiritual nature of an Entity whether Human or Divine. Man is a Soul comprised of Spirit and Body..this is Hebraic Anthropology, not Greek Myth.

Greek Myth is that we are spirits trapped in prisons of flesh and blood..slaves to physical urges, lusts, desires, emotions and the limits of our bodies. They thought death to be a return to divine liberation and the idea of Bodily Resurrection as needles and idiotic...a renewed imprisonment and slave to immortal carnality.

This Greek notion permeates Gnosticism my friend. Those who deny the spirit within man overreact to such Hellenistic Mythology and therefore misunderstand Biblical-Hebraic Cosmology and Anthropology. Paul called the Cross and Resurrection of Messiah a stumbling block to unbelieving Jewry, and idiotic to unbelieving Greek Philosophers.

To the unbelieving Jews God becoming one of us and then Sacrificing Himself seems horrific, and then to take up His Temple of Immortalized Flesh and Bones a blasphemy.

The Idea of a god incarnating, dying and resurrecting as a spirit god was not alien to pagans, but the need to become flesh and bones, immortal or not, was shocking and seemed needless foolishness...as being pure spirit was viewed as superior to physical form. It was too semitic, too Jewish for such pagans endowed with superior Greek Wisdom.

So what have you to say to what I have said? No Proof texts..let's dialogue the points.


Rev.Ken.