Sanctification after death (purgatory?)

[Guest]

So if God wills, He can torment someone forever and still be a kind, loving and merciful God.

Sean, I cannot argue against your statement that God reserves the right to avenge, pour out wrath, judge, etc. I agree, and acknowledge that we are not to take this right reserved to God upon ourselves. But the statement that if God so chooses He can torment people forever and still be considered kind, loving and merciful is hard for me to swallow.

I agree God has the right as well as the ability to do this. But it seems to me that we would need to redefine the words kind, loving, and merciful to make that statement make sense (at least to me). Especially when you consider that

a) According to 'orthodoxy' the vast majority of people are to be condemned to this 'torment'

b) God knew this was the case before He created the universe (again, according to the 'orthodox' position).

One thing to consider is that scripture over and again teaches that the forgiveness, mercy and judgement of God is according to the way we ourselves forgive, show mercy, and judge. (Ps. 18:25-26, Oba 1:15, Mk. 4:24, Lk 6:38, etc).

For example:

"Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. " (Mt. 7:1-2, NASB)

It would seem that God's judgements on us are proportional to the way we judged others. I cannot imagine the person who has so judged others that the measure he used would be returned back to him with 'torment forever'.

You may indeed be right and me wrong, it just does not seem to me to be what the Bible teaches.

I guess we will both find out later

In Christ,

Mike

Well, I would just say that God's love is manifest in the fact that we are alive to begin with. Even though we have sinned and fall short of our intended purpose, God is kind enough to sustain us, both believers and unbelievers alike. And God's mercy is seen in our forgiveness, which is contengent on our repentace and faith toward God, resulting in a new live which is evident in all the ways Paidion has pointed out.

Now, in my opinion, God cannot sustain "evil" forever, especially being mixed with believers. What I mean is, judgement will come for everything ever done. Eventually justice will come. The only way around our just punishment is forgiveness through Christ's atonement, without that there can be no forgiveness. Those who reject the only way of forgiveness cannot be forgiven, because the only offering made for their sin (Jesus) would have been rejected by them. To be just, God must punish sinners. To me it would be unjust and unbiblical to let unrepentant sinners who reject Christ free. I know you would say that this in not your view, but I think it's the logical conclusion. If someone can repent after death, when they have only two choices, where God is visible and faith is no longer required (because it's no longer belief in the "unseen") then IMO there is only one choice that will be made. The selfish one. The one that now understands that there is no more freedom to do as you wish because "life" is over (I'm talking about judgement day). There is only one choice to make, repentance unto salvation. The only other option is "burn". The Christian takes a hard option, die to self. In THIS life. Believe in Christ and you will never die. It seems like universalism takes the view that you can live like you want and die unrepentant, then when faced with your punishment because you have lived in rebellion against God you can repent, maybe suffer for awhile and then be saved, because for some reason, God owes everyone salvation?

I believe God owes no one salvation, that is why the path is narrow, not wide. God will eventually seperate the saved from the lost. I don't know of a passage that states the lost can get saved after judgement day. So my view of God's love is that we are given the opportunity to repent of our sins. If we refuse, we suffer. Either forever or maybe are destroyed completely.

I also agree that it's possible universalism can be true. I certainly would rejoice in people who I know personally that are not saved may get another chance. But again, since I'm not told this to be the case specifically, I don't have any reason to expect it. But who knows. 8)

[Guest]

I agree with Homer and Sean. We dont often view sin as God deos, mainly because we are tempted by it most of the time. But God "cannot be tempted, niether tempteth he any man".

If universalism is true, then men like Hitler have no reason to fear judgment. Men like King Herod who had all the male children in Isreal killed need not worry. For they will suffer for a period of time, and then be glorified. This is not biblical theology. At least the way I see it.

Paul said "Therefore knowing the TERROR of the Lord, we persuade men." 2 Cor 5:11

[Guest]

Mike,

What if, from God's point of view (not ours), sin is so horrible that it deserves eternal punishment? After all, death came on all people everywhere, along with all the suffering that entails, and the earth was cursed, all this as the result of one sin each by Adam and Eve. Does this seem just from our human viewpoint? I do not hear of God being charged with injustice in this case. Did God repent and become a Christian and acquire the attributes of kindness, love, and mercy?

Since God never changes, does God's character as shown in the Old Testament conflict with the idea of eternal punishment?

Homer,

You always bring up such good points! You are a smart guy!

If God sees sin as so awful that He deems that we deserve eternal torment, than that is what will happen. I just wish He had made that clear from the start - instead of saying sin resulted in death

I am not sure I see the judgement on Adam and Eve the same way you do. To me God's judgement on the earth and mankind was part of His plan to bring us back to Himself while not violating our freedom to choose. It is interesting that at the same time He was cursing the serpent, Eve and Adam, we see the first hint of His plan for redemption
(Gen. 3:15).

I have a son who in the last couple of years has left the home and is now making some of the same mistakes I made as a young man. It pains me a great deal. I had hoped he would choose to learn from my mistakes and my warnings about what those choices result in. Unfortunately, that did not happen. Hopefully, as he suffers (as I did) the consequences of his actions he will also learn and choose better next time. If he did not suffer the consequences he would not learn.

In the Garden Man did not choose to head the warnings of God and we are living with the consequences. I believe God is watching (and feeling some pain over His children as I do for my own), and desiring that we learn to choose right.

In the end, if He chooses eternal torment for those who do not learn, but remain rebellious, I am sure it will make more sense to me at that time.
You may be right. (I just don't think so from my current vantage point).

As I have said in another thread, I just wish we wouldn't be so dogmatic about this when I think scripture is not completely clear.

Blessings to you, Homer!

Mike

[Guest]

Well, I would just say that God's love is manifest in the fact that we are alive to begin with. Even though we have sinned and fall short of our intended purpose, God is kind enough to sustain us, both believers and unbelievers alike. And God's mercy is seen in our forgiveness, which is contengent on our repentace and faith toward God, resulting in a new live which is evident in all the ways Paidion has pointed out.

Now, in my opinion, God cannot sustain "evil" forever, especially being mixed with believers. What I mean is, judgement will come for everything ever done. Eventually justice will come. The only way around our just punishment is forgiveness through Christ's atonement, without that there can be no forgiveness. Those who reject the only way of forgiveness cannot be forgiven, because the only offering made for their sin (Jesus) would have been rejected by them. To be just, God must punish sinners. To me it would be unjust and unbiblical to let unrepentant sinners who reject Christ free. I know you would say that this in not your view, but I think it's the logical conclusion. If someone can repent after death, when they have only two choices, where God is visible and faith is no longer required (because it's no longer belief in the "unseen") then IMO there is only one choice that will be made. The selfish one. The one that now understands that there is no more freedom to do as you wish because "life" is over (I'm talking about judgement day). There is only one choice to make, repentance unto salvation. The only other option is "burn". The Christian takes a hard option, die to self. In THIS life. Believe in Christ and you will never die. It seems like universalism takes the view that you can live like you want and die unrepentant, then when faced with your punishment because you have lived in rebellion against God you can repent, maybe suffer for awhile and then be saved, because for some reason, God owes everyone salvation?

I believe God owes no one salvation, that is why the path is narrow, not wide. God will eventually seperate the saved from the lost. I don't know of a passage that states the lost can get saved after judgement day. So my view of God's love is that we are given the opportunity to repent of our sins. If we refuse, we suffer. Either forever or maybe are destroyed completely.

I also agree that it's possible universalism can be true. I certainly would rejoice in people who I know personally that are not saved may get another chance. But again, since I'm not told this to be the case specifically, I don't have any reason to expect it. But who knows. 8)

Sean, I agree with much of what you said. Although, from reading your post, it would seem you may think I believe in universalism.

What I believe is that the scripture is unclear about what the judgement will be like. What we know for sure is that everyone will be judged according to their works. We know that there is a place called the Lake of Fire, where those not found in the Book of Life will be thrown. And we know that God repeatedly said the judgement for sin is death. (But He offers another way).

You say that there are no passages that state that the lost can be saved after judgement day. I do not either. Nor do I know what will happen on the day of judgement, whether those who had not heard the gospel will somehow be offered some hope.

Mankind stood before the Judge of all the earth once before (in Christ's first coming), saw evidence for His speaking the truth, and promptly crucified Him. So I am not sure that it is clear that when we all stand before Him again, that we will all see it as having only one choice, as you state. Perhaps there would be some who would refuse to repent even on judgement day. I can imagine scenarios where that would be the case. Maybe someday I will take the time to write about these ideas

Anyway, thats a task for another day.

Blessings to you!

Mike

[Guest]

Mike,

My heart aches for you! I will pray for your son. You wrote:

"I have a son who in the last couple of years has left the home and is now making some of the same mistakes I made as a young man. It pains me a great deal. I had hoped he would choose to learn from my mistakes and my warnings about what those choices result in. Unfortunately, that did not happen. Hopefully, as he suffers (as I did) the consequences of his actions he will also learn and choose better next time. If he did not suffer the consequences he would not learn."

I and my brother both became prodigal sons. I'm sure my mother prayed for us many years. After 20+ years with the pigs, I "came home". I prayed for my brother for over 20 years and it worked! He returned after about 50 years astray! Sadly, our mother did not live to see his return to the fold. A niece commented what a wonderful surprise she will have when he meets her (mom) in heaven. Keep on praying and never give up!

I may come across as very certain about universalism. I would be happy to find I'm wrong, as I may be, but I do not find the biblical arguments for it to be very strong. It seems the best arguments are based on reason, but we do not see things as God views them.

God bless, Homer

[Guest]

Mike,

My heart aches for you! I will pray for your son.

Bless you!

I and my brother both became prodigal sons. I'm sure my mother prayed for us many years. After 20+ years with the pigs, I "came home". I prayed for my brother for over 20 years and it worked! He returned after about 50 years astray! Sadly, our mother did not live to see his return to the fold. A niece commented what a wonderful surprise she will have when he meets her (mom) in heaven. Keep on praying and never give up!

Sounds a little like my story. My parents prayed for me for many years.
Yes, I will not give up on my son!

I may come across as very certain about universalism. I would be happy to find I'm wrong, as I may be, but I do not find the biblical arguments for it to be very strong. It seems the best arguments are based on reason, but we do not see things as God views them.

As I said to Sean, I am not a universalist either. But one can hope

Thanks Homer,

Mike

[Guest]

Mike,

But the statement that if God so chooses He can torment people forever and still be considered kind, loving and merciful is hard for me to swallow.

What if, from God's point of view (not ours), sin is so horrible that it deserves eternal punishment? After all, death came on all people everywhere, along with all the suffering that entails, and the earth was cursed, all this as the result of one sin each by Adam and Eve. Does this seem just from our human viewpoint? I do not hear of God being charged with injustice in this case. Did God repent and become a Christian and acquire the attributes of kindness, love, and mercy?

Since God never changes, does God's character as shown in the Old Testament conflict with the idea of eternal punishment?

I say Amen to both Homer and Sean.

One must realize that God doesn't send people to hell. We send ourselves there. Most of us would agree that God, in His wonderous wisdom, gave us freedom of choice. In other words, we are accountable for our sin. God must seperate Himself from sinfullness.

IMHO, sin initiated eternal punishment. Only Jesus can release us from that bondage. If you "pay off" your sins in a kind of purgatory, doesn't that conflict with God's nature?

[Guest]

IMHO, sin initiated eternal punishment. Only Jesus can release us from that bondage. If you "pay off" your sins in a kind of purgatory, doesn't that conflict with God's nature?

I do not think anyone in this thread is advocating that sins are "paid off" in purgatory. Not even the universalists I have read believe that.

I believe that God desires all to repent and to choose Him freely. I do not see any scriptures that clearly say that this desire of His is frustrated by death. You have asked for verses that say it is possible to repent after death. I don't know of any verses that clearly say that repentance is or is not possible after death (although I know of some that people have used to make the argument that repentance is not possible after death).

I repented when I felt the consequences of my sin and realized that God had a better way. Is it not possible that sinners, after death face the consequences of their sins and choose to forsake them?

The argument that this type of repentance would not be genuine must be addressed. But then repentance prior to death is not always genuine, but somehow God seems to be able to know the differrence between genuine and fake, right?

We will all know the truth on THAT day. I suspect we will all be surprised to some extent.

In Christ,

Mike

[Guest]

The doctrine of Purgatory for "carnal" christians is a Medieval Myth developed in the Latin West and denigrates the Sacrificial Atonement of Messiah and therefore lacks the Orthodox Smell test. Only in the West and her Romanist Uniate jurisdictions in the East & Orient is this topic even discussed. Among all Eastern and Oreintal Orthodox Christians-Nazaraeans this subject is a non starter..it is not Apostoli9c or Biblical.

In Messiah,
Rev. Ken

[Guest]

Attention: Contest

Who can find a passage of scripture that affirms that unbelievers can be sanctified after death? The winner will be awarded a free tape from: http://www.charityministries.org/

...but they will give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead, that though judged in the flesh like men, they might live in the spirit like God.
I Peter 4:5,6

Let's see. The gospel was preached to the dead. These dead must have been "unbelievers" or they would not have needed the gospel preached to them. The gospel would not have been preached to them unless there was a possibility for them to accept it. Those who accepted it, must have been sanctified in some sense. For Paul writes to Christians, "You were sacntified..." I Cor. 6:11.

Okay, Loaves. How do I collect my free tape?