Would you give up your salvation if.......

Post by **_Anonymous** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:14 pm

TK, good point...I was thinking more like a command. If it was an option, I guess I wouldn't do it either.

I changed my mind again. I think I would do it anyway. What if it were 10 people I know? Right now I'm watching 20 adorable kids doing math. What if I could guarantee that 10 of them would be saved. I would do it, and hopefully have the faith needed.

Post by **_Allyn** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:16 pm

Why do I feel ignored?

Post by **_TK** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:21 pm

you are not ignored, Allyn-- i agree with you. of course the qualification is that he was subjected to "hell" (if that is what really happened) for only 3 days vs all eternity. so in a sense even Jesus wasnt asked to do what the question demanded.

TK

Post by **_Blind Beggar** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:33 pm

I was reminded of Romans 9 when reading this topic.

"At the same time, you need to know that I carry with me at all times a huge sorrow. It's an enormous pain deep within me, and I'm never free of it. I'm not exaggerating—Christ and the Holy Spirit are my witnesses. It's the Israelites...If there were any way I could be cursed by the Messiah so they could be blessed by him, I'd do it in a minute. (The Message)

Post by **_Allyn** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:13 pm

TK, thanks. Of course I really wasn't feeling ignored. I was just showing the lighter side of myself.

Post by **_Jim** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:39 am

Mort_Coyle wrote:Well, in this scenario, to reject God would be to obey Him but obedience is not rejection, so its a fallacious question. Secondarily, having dialoged with God face-to-face how could one then reject Him? Additionally, the question paints God as a capricious being, akin to the pagan gods, who would strike bargains with men. This is not the God of the Bible. Also, unless perhaps one is a Calvinist, the idea of God promising to "bring your 10 worst sinners to salvation" violates their free will. Salvation can only be through faith in Christ, not through the obedience of a third party. I would have to conclude that I was, in fact, not dealing with God at all, but speaking with Satan who was trying to deceive me into rejecting God.

I agree that it could be satan trying to deceive you but my premise was without satan involved in the question.

I could actually see God giving us options to decide to test us and grow us. Many of those options leave us in the dark over the outcome and how it will work out for good. It would be a tough trial forsure but God also promises a way out. In my scenario I didn't say how he would bring the 10 to Him but I have seen Him work in many diffrent ways to bring people to repentance. Isn't our prayers for the salvation of others trying to thwart others free will thru Christ?
When I contemplate such a trial, would I do it I want to say yes but then I also fear I would say no, I imaging God actually having a plan to use those 10 to bring hundreds or thousands to him. These are just some of my thoughts on this.

Jim

Post by **_anothersteve** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:11 am

This post conjures up something from my past. An issue I still deal with today in my mind.
Back when I was 18 years old (and less than 2 years old Christian) I ended up in a mentoring relationship for a few years that, in my mind, was the worst experience of my life by far. I still cringe when I hear people talk about spiritual mentorship.

Anyway, one of the things he posed to me (amongst many others) was this seemingly warped view of Calvinism. "If God would be most glorified by sending you to hell then you need to thank him for sending you to hell. If you don't thank him then you're being selfish, puting conditions on God and not seeking his glory."

This was not proposed to me as something to consider but as something I need to do. "Heaven or Hell, I thank you God as long as your glorified". (By the way, I did pray this pray several times and tried to be as sincere as I could)

Needless to say, issues like putting conditions on God and Calvinism became not just theologically abstract questions for me. If Calvinism is true and you logically break it down, then my former "mentor's" approach seems valid. God chooses for his glory alone. Period. There's nothing you can do about it. So to seek something other than what God wants, like going to heaven, is selfish.

On the other hand, for me, is the question about putting conditions on God. After much consideration I see problems with the Calvinistic position. The Calvinistic postion gave me a much different view of God than I had in my first couple of years as a Christian. That aside, the question I now have is this. If my mentor's god was God (and not the one I find in the Bible) should that affect my service to him at all. I mean, we're not suppose to put any conditions on God, right? He is the potter and we're the clay.

I know this dosen't exactly fit in the post, but I guess it's somewhat related. The type of question Jim asked gets me back to this question in my own mind.

Steve