Are Israel and the Church the Same Church?

[Guest]

Sean,

Are you saying that the "natural branches" were the Jews who first believed the Gospel and not including the faithful Jews under the Law of Moses? This would then be in agreement with Paul's figure of the Church being a building with Jesus the foundation cornerstone. This particular building did not exist prior to the foundation.

Hello Homer,

That's not exactly what I believe. I believe they (natural branches) were the faithful Jewish remnant (including the faithful Jews under the Law of Moses) that (by being faithful) transitioned themselves into the kingdom of God established by Christ by accepting the Messiah.

Any Jews that were in covenant relationship with God (under the OC) were also natural branches but were cut off due to unbelief.

[Guest]

Sean,

Are you saying that the "natural branches" were the Jews who first believed the Gospel and not including the faithful Jews under the Law of Moses? This would then be in agreement with Paul's figure of the Church being a building with Jesus the foundation cornerstone. This particular building did not exist prior to the foundation.

Hello Homer,

That's not exactly what I believe. I believe they (natural branches) were the faithful Jewish remnant (including the faithful Jews under the Law of Moses) that (by being faithful) transitioned themselves into the kingdom of God established by Christ by accepting the Messiah.

Any Jews that were in covenant relationship with God (under the OC) were also natural branches but were cut off due to unbelief.

And that is exactly my position as well.

[Guest]

I have long believed that gentiles could be saved apart from the Law, just the same as they could before the Law came, as Noah, Abraham, et al were. The Law was for the Jews alone, addressed to those "brought out of Egypt". (this did not preclude one from becoming a Jew.) Is there any place in scripture where we are informed that all the other peoples of the earth, without exception, though they believed in the true God, were unacceptable to God at the time the Law was given?




As far as i know no one was saved by the law at all, it was just a schoolmaster to drive us to Christ, and it was and still is faith that saves. So the olive tree is something like the household or family of faith.

[Guest]

It seems that all throughout the history of Israel, there were just a few, a faithful remnant, who truly followed God and obeyed Him.

After God sent His Son Jesus to be born into the world, Jesus' disciples were that faithful remnant, as well as those were taught by them who submitted to the authority of the Jesus the Messiah.

All who comprise the remnant of all ages are True Israel. And so God's promise has not failed that "All Israel shall be saved."

This is how I understand Romans 9-11.

If people within the True Israel ceased following Yahweh, they were cut off from the olive tree (the True Israel). If gentiles began to follow Him, they were grafted in. After Paul began preaching to the gentiles, large numers of them were grafted in. The Church is simply a continuation of the True Israel, though presently, there is a much largerpercentage of the True Israel who are gentiles than there once was. But none of that matters, for the wall of partition has been broken down, and in the Messiah, there is neither Jew nor gentile, but all are one in Him.

Messiah-rejecting Jews are in no way part of the True Israel ---- nor Messiah-rejecting gentiles for that matter. Both become part of the True Israel in the same way ---- through submitting their lives to the Messiah, and undergoing the process of salvation from sin and taking on righteousness by faith ---- the same kind of faith as that of Abraham.

[Guest]

wonderful paidion, thats what i wanted/tried to say