Worshipping the MAN Christ Jesus?

[Guest]

Consider the following well-known syllogism:

1. God cannot die
2. Jesus died
3. Thus, Jesus isn't God

A common repsonse to this is on the lines of "Only the humanity of Jesus actually died, his divinity didn't die."

Okay, question:

Do trinitarians (and binitarians) worship the humanity of Jesus (as God)?
In other words, the man Messiah Jesus who died and rose from dead, do you worship him as God?

[Guest]

Do trinitarians (and binitarians) worship the humanity of Jesus (as God)?
In other words, the man Messiah Jesus who died and rose from dead, do you worship him as God?

I don't think you can separate Jesus into different parts regarding worship but paradoxically it is true he died as a human being. If he is the exact image and nature of God , then how could he not be divine? As i understand it Phil 2.6 says he emptied himself of his divinity to allow him to die and be like us. Even the JWs acknowledge his pre-existence but as the Archangel Michael therefore they claim he emptied himself of his angelic nature. But i don't think an angel can die for the sins of humanity because the blood of Christ must be unique and one of a kind to purchase humanity IMHO. IMO Jesus's divinity originated from the Father therefore he is not God allmighty but through Yahweh he is diety.

[Guest]

What i'm trying to get at is this:

1. It is a sin to worship and serve a created thing (Romans 1:26)

2. The man Messiah Jesus ("his humanity") is a created thing (e.g. Romans 1:3, Galatians 4:4, John 1:14, etc.).

THUS

3. Worshipping the man Messiah Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5) as God is sin, because it is worshipping a created thing.

Assuming the premises are accurate (feel free to correct them), why does the conclusion not follow?

[Guest]

Ely,

I think you already posted an answer to this.. but if Jesus actually is above Creation, in that he holds it all together, how could he also said to be 'part' of it?

Perhaps the God made flesh man Jesus is not part of 'creation'

Les

[Guest]

What i'm trying to get at is this:

1. It is a sin to worship and serve a created thing (Romans 1:26)

2. The man Messiah Jesus ("his humanity") is a created thing (e.g. Romans 1:3, Galatians 4:4, John 1:14, etc.).

THUS

3. Worshipping the man Messiah Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5) as God is sin, because it is worshipping a created thing.

Assuming the premises are accurate (feel free to correct them), why does the conclusion not follow?

That's a good question.

However, I don't think that Jesus qualifies as being a "created being" irregardless of His taking on human flesh.

He is unlike any mere man, in that He is pre-existed prior to coming here.

He is uniquie. The God-man, and thus not a "creature" a la Rom. 1:25 (in fact, He's the creator!).

The fact that He was born ( not "made" as the KJV says) of a woman, does not make Him any less eternal.

Aside from these points, He is worshipped in scrpture!

Isaiah 6

Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
Isa 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
Isa 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

(Joh 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. ~ in this context, the pronouns "his" and "him" refer to Jesus).

Speaking of the Father:

Now there are a lot of great things in this passage that help show the deity of Christ, but putting that aside for now, just notice the language of worship.

Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
Rev 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

To the Lamb, and the Father:

Rev 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. Rev 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

In this passage the Lamb is worshipped right along side the father.

If this type of language is permissable when directed at a mere creature, then how are we to know what idolatry even is?

God bless,

[Guest]

Rev 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. Rev 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

And in Hebrews 13.8 we are told that Christ "is the same yesterday and today and forever."
In Hebrews 1.10-12 where the Father speaks of the Son's nature "In the beginning O Lord you laid the foundations of the earth and the heavens are the creation of your hands."
This is a quote from Psalm 102.25-27 which spoke of the Father yet here it's directed to Jesus.
I don't believe Christ is a separate God because i think he existed within Yahweh yet at some point the Word existed outside of the Father, like the Holy Spirit.
Both are "of God" , the Spirit of God and the Son of God.

[Guest]

Ely-

I have a question for you-- please don't take offense because I mean none.

It seems rather clear to me that believing in the deity of Jesus Christ is one of the "non-negotiables" when it comes to Christianity. In other words, being a "christian," encompasses the idea that one believes this essential point.

Now, there are groups (cults) that do not accept the deity of Christ, as christians understand it. Jehovah's witnesses and mormons come immediately to mind. So does Judaism, of course.

Are you trying to make the argument that a person can still be a christian and not accept the deity of Christ?

Why not rather state, if you do NOT believe in the deity of Christ, that I am simply not a Christian as that term hase been defined for hundreds and hundreds of years?

It seems that you are arguing that a person can still be a Christian and not accept this basic doctrine; i.e. you are trying to change the definition of Christianity.

Why not rather simply state "I do not believe that Jesus was God; I believe that worshiping Jesus as God is idolatry, therefore I must hope that my belief is correct and take my chances." After all, if you are correct, then we are all wrong and may be very sorry one day. I dont believe that, obviously.

It seems to me that saying that a person can still be Christian if they do not believe in the divinity of Jesus is like saying a person can be an evolutionist and not believe in natural selection. The two just dont jive.

TK

[Guest]

It seems rather clear to me that believing in the deity of Jesus Christ is one of the "non-negotiables" when it comes to Christianity. In other words, being a "christian," encompasses the idea that one believes this essential point


Ely, I don't know whether you may have considered that Yahweh in being one God is trancendent over anything including physical limitations. This was demonstrated many times in the OT when His Spirit manifested in various ways yet He was always , one God.
Yes it is mysterious that Christ can be divine yet there still is only one true God but i keep remembering Yahweh's transcendency over physical limitations.

[Guest]

Hi TK, I know you don't mean any offence and none is taken at all.

As far as "Christianity" and being a "Christian" goes, if this is defined by what men have decided for the past 1700 years - then yes, I am not a Christian. And that doesn't bother me that much to be honest. As I said on another thread, I hold to all of the essentials of the faith which are identified by Jesus Christ and those who he directly appointed to publicise his teachings.

I do believe that there are some doctrines which cannot be rejected. I trully believe that God has communicated all of the key information a person needs to know in order to be in right standing with Him. There are some things which a person, once having been presented with the evidence - cannot deny and still expect to be in right standing with God. As far as I can tell, these non-negotiable essentials are:

- Belief in the one God who alone is to be worshipped and served (Matthew 4:10, Mark 12:29-30, Romans 1:25, Hebrews 11:6, James 2:19)
- Belief that Jesus is the unique son of God (Matthew 16, 1 John 4:15).
- Belief that Jesus is the Messiah aka the Christ (1 John 2:22-23)
- Belief that Jesus Messiah came in the flesh, which I understand to mean that he was a man (1 John 4:2-3)
- Belief that Jesus was delivered up to death on the cross and was raised up again by the power of God, three days later (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).
- Belief in the resurrection of the dead which, based on the precedent of Jesus' own resurrection, I understand will be a of literal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:13-22, 1 Thesalonians 4:14)
- Belief that a saint is expected to actively pursue a holiness and righteous living. If they do not, if they live unrighteously and in unrepentant wilful sin, they will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, 1 John 3:4-10)

If you can find any place in the scriptures where belief in the Trinity or the Deity of Jesus Christ is said to be an essential belief, then please show me. I need to know so I can change my beliefs accordingly. But I will only do so based on the scriptures. I have decided to make the scriptures my ultimate authority of faith and practice - not the traditions or creeds of men.

[Guest]

or the Deity of Jesus Christ is said to be an essential belief, then please show me. I need


How about responding to Heb 1.10 and 13.8.