The Spiritual Gift of Prophecy (and, perhaps, others)

[psychohmike]

Hi Michelle-

you wrote:

For some reason this conversation is putting me in an argumentative mood and I promised myself I wouldn't argue on this forum any more.

may I ask why this topic puts you in an argumentative mood? i think its important that we try to help each other, and learn from each other, but I am not clear about what is "bugging" you (for lack of a better term).

quite a few things bug me about the gifts of the HS, but much less so than they used to. I still think there is a lot of play-acting, for one thing. but that's why we are to be discerning. the problem, of course, is being over-discerning to the point that we throw the roses out with the weeds.

TK

P.S. - i'm right there with you when it comes to Mr. Bentley- red flags all over the place.

Hi TK,

The sentence I bolded in your quote states quite nicely what it is that I'm afraid of doing, so I'm struggling to keep an open mind. I really want to learn more; I want to know everything I can about the Holy Spirit and the gifts. However, this discussion veered off into personal experiences and I'm reluctant to examine and pick apart someone's experience in order to analyze it. I'm worried about seeming to dismiss a moment in someone's life that means a lot to them emotionally and spiritually.

Rick is making a distinction between God speaking to us through a person and God using a person to speak to us. He says there is a subtle difference and implies that it is that subtlety that makes all the difference. I believe that it's a subtlety without distinction. In order to make my point, I'm tempted to stack my word of knowledge against his prophecy to compare, and that, I think, would be a horrible thing to do. Obviously we've both had God touch our hearts in remarkable ways; why make a big deal about which gift He employed to do so? What difference does it really make? In my case it is simply pride; I got the niggling feeling that Rick was saying my experience wasn't as, well, special. So, when I said I was in an argumentative mood, that's what I meant: part of me wanted to argue with Rick, part of me, thank goodness, decided that was a wrong thing to do.

[psychohmike]

Rick,

I appreciate you for taking my name off the examples you gave above. It's less jarring for me to see a nameless someone than to see my name used as an example. Thanks

In my first post on this thread I asked you this:

Also, have you ever heard someone claim to have a prophecy, either foretelling or forth-telling, that followed that structure: speaking in the first person, that you later were sure was wrong? That I think is the core of the other thread. I am becoming more and more convinced that there is something really wrong in Todd Bentley's ministry, and yet I'm still a little leery, worried that it may just be a knee-jerk reaction left-over from my upbringing.

I'm still curious to know what experiences you've had with false prophecy.

[_Paidion]

I want to make clear that my post in no way indicated how the gifts of the spirit should operate. There is no "should" involved. God does what He pleases. I was merely stating what in fact is done in the assembly with whom I meet.

Michelle, you mentioned false prophecy. The only two times in my entire life of 70 years in which I know God revealed His truth directly to me in the form of the miraculous, both involved false prophets.

I will relate one of those incidents. My wife and I had been attending a certain Christian camp where the gifts of the Spirit operated. This camp was not connected in any way to the circle of fellowship to which our local assembly belonged. In our local assembly, my wife and I had both received our spiritual gifts by the laying on of hands by the presbytery (I Tim 4:14) as the Holy Spirit indicated.

At this camp, a "prophet" had been invited in, one who professed to impart spiritual gifts. A meeting was called for the purpose. I was thinking of going, but it seemed as if the Lord was saying, "Don't attend that meeting. You have received my gifts." But I wanted to be certain that it was the Lord who was speaking to me, and not simply my own thoughts. So I said, "Lord, if this man is a false prophet, let the next person who walks by have blue jeans and a white top." I opened my eyes and immediately saw a person with blue jeans and a white blouse walk by. I said to myself, "Well, that's a common combination. That could have been accidental." Then I asked, "Lord, if that was really your word to me, then let the next person who walks by have white jeans and a blue top." I looked up and immediately saw a person so dressed! You can be sure I didn't attend after that clear indication!

However, at a later time a special meeting was called around the fireplace in the Tabernacle in the Woods. I was shocked to find that the "prophet" was laying hands of people, administering their "gifts" and "prophesying" their future. I wanted to run out of there, but somehow I stayed. And somehow I was so faithless, that I still wasn't sure about the man. So I prayed again, "Lord, if this man is a true prophet, let him prophesy next over J. ("J" was a man who has been seeking the gifts of the Spirit for some time), but is he is a false prophet let him next prophesy over that man (and I indicated to the Lord some man whom I didn't know). There were dozens of people in that room, but the "prophet" next prophesied over the unknown man I indicated! How gracious the Lord was to continue to tell me this man was a false prophet!

I shared with some of the brothers what the Lord had done to show me that the man was a false prophet. They wanted to inform C, one of the camp leaders, who was himself a powerful man in the Lord with a great anointing. For some reason I was reluctant to tell C, and so the brothers gave it up.

Next day, the final day of camp, this "prophet" prophesied over C himself!
He actually revealed himself as a false prophet, when he said over C, "... and your name will become a household word in America!" I realized that these words could feed C's pride, and I asked God to protect C from succumbing to this demonic flattery.

Gradually through the years that followed, it seemed that C did deteriorate spiritually, and I wondered to what degree I was responsible for this through my failure to act.

[Guest]

Michelle wrote:

Obviously we've both had God touch our hearts in remarkable ways; why make a big deal about which gift He employed to do so? What difference does it really make?

I agree with you there- when I have had "God" experiences through other people, I have never sat there and wondered "now was that a prophecy or a word of knowledge?" all i know is that I like it, and wish it would happen more often. More importantly, I am praying that God will use me to be the one that can give a word to someone now and then. I am somewhat resigned to the fact that perhaps he chooses to use me in other ways. I do some writing for the church- devotional type things, and people tell me they get a lot out of them. I would not claim that my writings are "prophetic" in nature, although I do sense God's leading in what I am to write.

Nonetheless, I still "eagerly desire spiritual gifts."

TK

[_Rick_C]

Also, have you ever heard someone claim to have a prophecy, either foretelling or forth-telling, that followed that structure: speaking in the first person, that you later were sure was wrong? That I think is the core of the other thread. I am becoming more and more convinced that there is something really wrong in Todd Bentley's ministry, and yet I'm still a little leery, worried that it may just be a knee-jerk reaction left-over from my upbringing.

I'm still curious to know what experiences you've had with false prophecy.

I've never met or heard a false prophet.

I listened to the Hank episode Sean linked on Todd Bentley. And while I've seen people get very emotional, and heard people loudly prophesy, and speak in tongues, and interpret tongues; I've never seen anyone say or do things anywhere remotely similar to what was reported about Bentley on Hank's show.

On someone "claiming" to have a prophecy.
I've experienced this. One time will probably be forever in my mind and heart. It was what has been called a "personal prophecy." On this occasion the person politely and humbly came to me, and asked a series of questions. After I answered, they gave some very encouraging words. This experience was what I referred to in an earlier post. Only God could have known the things that were said to me...but they were revealed to a prophet.

Actually, this person was Jeannie-Marie and this happened in about 1979.
We haven't discussed the office of 'modern-day' or NT Era prophets and I don't know if Jeannie-Marie considers herself one. She has never made that claim. At any rate, after getting back in touch with Pastor Ron and Jeannie-Marie for the first time about a year or so ago, Pastor Ron and I were reminiscing. He said, with a huge on his face, "God has been using Jeannie-Marie in this manner through all of these years, Rick."

Don & TK,

I want to reply to you but have some do's to do, bbl,

[_Rick_C]

General Observations and Commentary

First, I thank God he speaks to us.
By "us" I mean Michelle, TK, Don, myself, my neighbors and yours, my friends and yours, and everyone else to whom our Lord speaks.
Amen.

Rick is making a distinction between God speaking to us through a person and God using a person to speak to us.

Prophecies that come in the first person are unique in nature (by what they are); a simple fact.

God's using a person to speak could be through a first person prophecy and/or in many other ways (see my 'partial list' below).

God speaks.
The mode of the message can, and does, differ. The content of the message is relevant and specific to each situation. The vehicles God uses are alternate and varied. There's no distinction---in terms of the fact that God speaks---regarding which mode employed, what vehicle used, and what is said. God speaks, and does it in many, many different ways.

He says there is a subtle difference and implies that it is that subtlety that makes all the difference.

I don't know what "all the difference" means in the above sentence and can't correlate it with anything I've posted.

There's nothing subtle about prophecies delivered in the first person which would leave us wondering what they are. They're easily identifiable: the person prophesying speaks in the first person.

I said subtleties [human intricacies] are involved when we are trying to discern and evaluate things---and especially so with spiritual gifts. We ask: "Was it a 'word of knowledge'? Or a prophecy? Or both?" By the nature of our human makeup and design we must carefully evaluate these kinds of things in our lives. Again we ask: "Was it a mere hunch? Or was God trying to say something to me?" We ask these things, and rightly so. We must: We're just made that way.

I got the niggling feeling that Rick was saying my experience wasn't as, well, special.

I haven't commented about anyone's experiences other than my own; telling, in some detail, a few that have been special to me.

Since I haven't commented on anyone else's experiences, I can't understand how and why I could have been taken to have done so....
_______________________

This is what I say and what I believe.
God uses many ways to speak to his people, and, through any myriad number of means.

It could be through an encouraging word, a random thought, coincidence, a personal prophecy, a 'word of knowledge' (which has alternate interpretations and could mean different things), a prophecy in the Church, an insight received while alone, an insight received in church or any place else, a significant or special event, something that 'stands out' in a sermon, a still small voice, 'hearing in your heart' while reading the Bible or during meditation and prayer, a 'synchronicity' (an acausal or otherwise, inexplicable event like: thinking about something and suddenly someone says it or something about it), a thought, a feeling, an intuition...the list goes on and on and on......

The above only a few things that I can think of now. I don't know; there might be hundreds of other ways God speaks to his people (?). These are only a few.

I hope this helps clarify what I think, how I feel, and what I believe about these things, Thanks.

[psychohmike]

Quote:
I got the niggling feeling that Rick was saying my experience wasn't as, well, special.


I haven't commented about anyone's experiences other than my own; telling, in some detail, one or two that were special to me.

Since I haven't commented on anyone else's experiences, I can't understand how and why I could have been taken to have done so....

Come on, Rick, that's not fair. You used my name and you used the issue I wrote about, God's love for me, in your example. After I said that I was having a bad reaction, you edited your post to take my name out, and I thanked you for that. Now you're saying you can't see where you commented on anyone else's experience.

I said I had the feeling you were implying that prophecies were superior experiences; more to be desired since God was speaking personally to his people. I'm sorry if I misunderstood. I'm really trying to learn here and keep an open mind. I wonder all the time why God doesn't speak to me like some people say He speaks to them. It's one of the reasons why I wonder sometimes if He loves me, which brings me full circle to the experience that wrote about and that you seemed to talk about before you edited....

Please, I said that I realized my attitude was wrong and I tried to back out of the conversation without causing hurt feelings. TK asked me what was bugging me, so I explained it as well as I could. I'm truly sorry.

[Guest]

Hi Rick,
I think you should revise the title one more time and let it read:

The Spiritual Gift of Prophecy (and, perhaps, others) are things of the past.

I sincerely believe the Perfect has come already and those things are finished.

[Guest]

Allyn-

what is the "Perfect" you are referring to?

TK

[_Rick_C]

Hi Folks,

I do not debate the following topics (listed in alphabetical order):
Atheism
Calvinism
Dispensationalism
Spiritual Gifts
Universalism

______________________________________

Quick post to Don,
Your church sounds like they're following how I believe on these matters, in accordance with my understanding of Paul. Thanks for taking the time to post.
______________________________________

Other than this, I'm done with this thread, am not following it, and don't want to further discuss anything that has been posted on it: by PMs or other means.

I apologize for any inconveniences, Thanks.