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_Rick_C
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Post by _Rick_C » Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:36 am

I can't find my Nickelsburg translation but here is Charles':
1 Enoch 15

8 And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon 9 the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling. Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from men and from the holy Watchers is their beginning and primal origin; 10 they shall be evil spirits on earth, and evil spirits shall they be called. [As for the spirits of heaven, in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling.] And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they take no food, but nevertheless 12 hunger and thirst, and cause offences. And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded from them.
V. 8 ..."giants........shall be called evil spirits". If the Giants are the Nephilim, people are evil spirits....(see Jn 8:44a below).

(Underlined in) V. 10 is compatible with "the (loyal) angels in heaven" (Mt 22:30) who do not and will not marry, not having sinned/fallen. Also note that V. 11 seems to be missing. It must be incorporated into V. 10 (?).

V. 12 seems to show that the evil spirits (fallen angels) came into the women via regular men..."because they have proceeded from them"; evil spirit-possession of the men...who went into the women.

Isn't this a strange thing (to us)? We have no problem comprehending that we are born of a spirit: God's. We also understand that Jesus was "conceived by the Holy Spirit". But this idea of people being born by evil-spirits-and-flesh just isn't in our thinking, is it? I mean, it isn't Pauline that I know of. It's not orthodox doctrine as far as I know.

Consider what Jesus said though: "You are of your father the devil" (Jn 8:44a).
Was Jesus familiar with this "Enochian anthropology/hamartiology"?
Did He believe in it? It sure looks like He may or could have!
Hmmmmm.......
Rick

P.S. Please keep me on track here, guys! I have a tendency to "space out" (like) with deeeeeep subjects such as these..... :shock:
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_Rick_C
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Post by _Rick_C » Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:38 am

Greetings Paidion,
I have believed for years that the "sons of God" who had intercourse with the "daughters of men" were fallen angels.
I've considered this as my best option for about 7 years. And as I noted above...I lean toward evil-spirit-possession of men who then took wives.
I have heard that it is the official explanation of Judaism, and it was the understanding of all that I have read in early Christianity.
Scholars have identified an "Enochian Judaism" that developed "some time B.C.". The exact dating is debated. It was intact, imo, by about 100 B.C. Its beginning? I don't have an opinion. Perhaps 300BC? Orthodox Judaism may hold to this belief today. I'm sure some Jewish "sect" does. Perhaps the Hyper-Orthodox?
The other explanation I have heard in modern times is the "sons of God" were those descended from Seth. Why would those from the "Godly line of Seth" father giants if they were the ones who "went into" the women who were descended from Cain?
If I'm not mistaken it was Augustine who "invented" this "Sethian" idea. I'll try to find my source on it....
Rick
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_Derek
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Post by _Derek » Sat Jan 20, 2007 1:38 pm

Hey brother Rick,
I've considered this as my best option for about 7 years. And as I noted above...I lean toward evil-spirit-possession of men who then took wives
.

I see some problems with this idea. First, you would have to show (from the bible) that demons are, in fact, fallen angels. I really don't have problem with this per se, but the bible does not tell us this.

Second, supposing these angel/demons did posses men, why would it produce giant people? (And using the bible to interpret the bible, per Num. 13:33, we have to assume they are physical giants of some kind). Why would a spiritual possesion affect its offspring in any way, much less pass along some type of DNA?

I put little to no stock in ancient Jewish comentary/apocraphal writings. They are always so mystical and esoteric (interesting though). A lot of bizzare ideas could be "proven" by using their writings. (like over in the age of the earth thread, where Dr. Schroeder used this kind of thing in the paper by him there).
Have you ever heard of anyone being born by a spirit? I think so. We think it not strange that we have been born again by a spirit: the Spirit of God. I've heard the fall of the angels (in Ge 6) as "an alternate description" of The Fall.
To be born by the Spirit of God is to be given a new nature; made a new creation. This is not the prerogative of demons as far as I can see in the bible.

God bless bro,
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Derek

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Post by _TK » Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:12 pm

i thought the nephilim were aliens or something like that. didnt they build the pyramids? i think i saw a show on the history channel about that.

just as only God knows who wrote Hebrews, perhaps only God knows who the nephilim were.

TK
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Post by _Rick_C » Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:09 am

Study Note on Ge 6:2 (NET Bible):
The Hebrew phrase translated “sons of God” (בְנֵי־הָאֱלֹהִים, bÿne-ha’elohim) occurs only here (Gen 6:2, 4) and in Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7. There are three major interpretations of the phrase here.

(1) In the Book of Job the phrase clearly refers to angelic beings. In Gen 6 the “sons of God” are distinct from “humankind,” suggesting they were not human. This is consistent with the use of the phrase in Job. Since the passage speaks of these beings cohabiting with women, they must have taken physical form or possessed the bodies of men. An early Jewish tradition preserved in 1 En. 6-7 elaborates on this angelic revolt and even names the ringleaders.

(2) Not all scholars accept the angelic interpretation of the “sons of God,” however. Some argue that the “sons of God” were members of Seth’s line, traced back to God through Adam in Gen 5, while the “daughters of humankind” were descendants of Cain. But, as noted above, the text distinguishes the “sons of God” from humankind (which would include the Sethites as well as the Cainites) and suggests that the “daughters of humankind” are human women in general, not just Cainites.

(3) Others identify the “sons of God” as powerful tyrants, perhaps demon-possessed, who viewed themselves as divine and, following the example of Lamech (see Gen 4:19), practiced polygamy. But usage of the phrase “sons of God” in Job militates against this view.
I have taken interpretation (1) as the most satisfactory..."they must have taken physical form or possessed the bodies of men". Possession of the men seems to make sense, as the offspring of the Nephilim and the women they initially "took" continue to be born through regular parents later in the Bible (iow, after the Flood). The idea behind this is that the Nephilim lived on, being spiritual beings, though the bodies they had inhabited were destroyed in the Flood.

In reply to Brother Derek,
I see some problems with this idea. First, you would have to show (from the bible) that demons are, in fact, fallen angels. I really don't have problem with this per se, but the bible does not tell us this.
This does get tricky, doesn't it? (I've listened to Steve's series on Spiritual Warfare). The Bible does identify demons as (false) gods and as evil spirits who look for a place to reside inside human bodies. Interpretation (1, above) may be the only biblical passage that can support the idea that at least some demons may be the Nephilim.

The Bible does tell of a certain class fallen angels:
And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day— (Jude 6)
(and)
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell [Gk, tartarus] and committed them to chains [some mss, pits] of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; (2 Pe 2:4)

These passages have no biblical explanation that I know of. However, drawing upon 1 Enoch (as Jude did); we would have an explanation of who this class may be: the Watchers, aka, Nephilim.
Second, supposing these angel/demons did posses men, why would it produce giant people? (And using the bible to interpret the bible, per Num. 13:33, we have to assume they are physical giants of some kind). Why would a spiritual possesion affect its offspring in any way, much less pass along some type of DNA?
There are problems with the word "giants." The Hebrew is Nephilim which I take to mean "the fallen ones." But the LXX and some of this other literature has gigantes (giants). The ESV and other versions translate Nephilim directly thus showing a preference for the original Hebrew. In this case, I prefer a literal translation (as I usually do for study purposes).

Numbers 13:33 (ESV):
"And there we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim), and we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them.”
The Anakites and other decsendants of the Nephilim (Canaanites) are described as "taller and stronger" than the Hebrews (see, De 1:28; 9:1-3). Goliath may fall into this class of people as well. One king the Hebrews encountered was 13 feet tall (forgot the guy's name offhand). Getting back to the translation "giants"; the LXX and these other texts may have chosen this simply because these people were really big...they apparently had "big DNA". But I don't view them as especially physically odd outside of this. I mean, I don't think they came in Flying Saucers ad other such nonsense, lol

To sum up about fallen angels and demons. It seems that the original Nephilim may have been bound after they sinned. But as to whether the demons (who still roam the earth) somehow descended from them...or just how that works...is hard to understand. We know that some fallen angels have been bound for a long time. Were they all bound? We don't know. We just know demons are "here" and active (but don't know if they are fallen angels)....
I put little to no stock in ancient Jewish comentary/apocraphal writings. They are always so mystical and esoteric (interesting though). A lot of bizzare ideas could be "proven" by using their writings. (like over in the age of the earth thread, where Dr. Schroeder used this kind of thing in the paper by him there).
This probably illustrates how I'm a "non-fundamentalist" (for lack of vocaulary). Since the Bible wasn't written in a historical vacuum I assume that ideas and beliefs that were around at any given time were known by the Jewish people and therefore, the biblical authors. In the NT, Jude quotes from 1 Enoch and alludes to The Assumption of Moses. To me this provides a very real "context" in terms of exegesis and hermenuetics. I don't "believe" in these extra-canoical books, per se. But I do see them as very important to understand the historical and religious setting of the Bible, etc.
Lastly for now:
To be born by the Spirit of God is to be given a new nature; made a new creation. This is not the prerogative of demons as far as I can see in the bible.
How would you explain when Jesus said to the Jews in the Temple, "You are of your father, the devil" ? Jesus seemed to be speaking plainly and literally to them. If this was a metaphor of sorts...then would God as our Father be metaphorical as well? Of course not. It appears to me that Jesus is saying something quite deliberate and forthright. We tend to understand our salvation and status as the children of God through Paul and other NT authors. But is there anything from Jesus we can learn here? Is the devil literally the father of at least some unbelievers? Jesus said he was. I don't see how we can get past this!
I gtg, thanx,
Rick
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:39 am

The thing that suggests to me that something was unique re the flood is that if it was a worldwide event and God destroyed almost everyone because men were evil then it seems the flood was'nt very effective because man remained evil.
Therefore it seems something was different that caused God to destroy all these people, maybe angels had more authority back then and possessed men and caused distorted children beyond redemption.
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Post by _Derek » Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:42 am

How would you explain when Jesus said to the Jews in the Temple, "You are of your father, the devil" ?
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

This passage is not speaking of creative power that the devil has. It is speaking of who's will they (the Jews) do. In that sense, they are of their father in heaven, or Abraham, or the devil. For instance, Jesus says that if "Abraham were your father, you would do the works of...". Does this mean that Abraham had power to create as well? Not at all. So I don't see Jesus as literally saying that the devil is the father of these people. Are you asserting that the devil had relations with the mothers of all of these men, like the "fallen angel/demons" did in Gen. 6? That would seem like quite a stretch to get all that from a pretty ambiguous couple of verses in Genesis IMO.

God bless,
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Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7

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_Rick_C
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Post by _Rick_C » Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:50 am

Derek,
This passage (Jn 8:39-44) is not speaking of creative power that the devil has. It is speaking of who's will they (the Jews) do. In that sense, they are of their father in heaven, or Abraham, or the devil. For instance, Jesus says that if "Abraham were your father, you would do the works of...".
In this passage the devil has sons who do his works. Jesus doesn't specifically say how they became sons of the devil; He just says that they are.
Does this mean that Abraham had power to create as well? Not at all.
It is through Abraham's seed (Christ) that we have inherited the promises made to Abraham. I'm not sure what you mean by about Abraham "creating". He procreated (had children) as far as that goes.
So I don't see Jesus as literally saying that the devil is the father of these people.
If by "literally" you might be referring to the "Serpent Seed Doctrine" (?); I don't believe in it. I "literally" believe these Jews were sons of the devil in a "real" sense.
Are you asserting that the devil had relations with the mothers of all of these men, like the "fallen angel/demons" did in Gen. 6?
The sons of the devil are his offspring (see Ge 3:15). And as I said earlier in the thread I see the children of the Nephilim as having two actual human parents. The Jews Jesus spoke to had them as well. Yet the devil was their father....
That would seem like quite a stretch to get all that from a pretty ambiguous couple of verses in Genesis IMO.
I've been studying these verses and related topics for about six years and want to continue some place online. (I know another forum that studies these kinds of topics: an ex-JW board, though many of them are not Christians or even theists). I can and will post there if this is offensive to you or anyone else, Derek; just let me know, please. I've seen some threads on Nephilim at this forum. As I recall, most posters there saw it as "fallen angels mating with women". I haven't met anyone who agrees with my "working interpretation" (NET Bible Study Note no. 1).
Rick
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Post by _Rick_C » Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:33 am

Greetings Steve (haven't seen you in a while),
The thing that suggests to me that something was unique re the flood is that if it was a worldwide event and God destroyed almost everyone because men were evil then it seems the flood was'nt very effective because man remained evil.
The Nephilim and other descendants from them "lived" after the Flood. Extra-biblical literature offers explanations as to how these things may have happened or came about. As has been mentioned; the Bible just doesn't really say much in itself, by way of explanation. This is why I study the other Jewish texts of biblical times for historical-grammatical interpretation (though I go beyond it into more critical studies). These texts can shed light on the Bible, imo.
Therefore it seems something was different that caused God to destroy all these people, maybe angels had more authority back then and possessed men and caused distorted children beyond redemption.
Other texts show how fallen angels taught humanity culture. They were, in a sense, teaching humanity things that weren't in "God's timing" or plan, according to the texts. People are portrayed as continuing to "eat forbidden fruit" (to become wise "as gods" in their own eyes) and getting ahead of God's design. The Fallen Angels also taught the art of war and astrology (here several Fallen Angels are named):

1 ENOCH 8:1 And Azazel taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all 2 colouring tinctures. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they 3 were led astray, and became corrupt in all their ways. Semjaza taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, Armaros the resolving of enchantments, Baraqijal (taught) astrology, Kokabel the constellations, Ezeqeel the knowledge of the clouds, Araqiel the signs of the earth, Shamsiel the signs of the sun, and Sariel the course of the moon. And as men perished, they cried, and their cry went up to heaven . . . (From The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, translated by R.H. Charles)

So 1 Enoch would agree that the Fallen Angels had a lot power and that they, in a certain sense, were making their own civilization(s)...or at least were attempting to. It appears that they were opposed to one another. The stuff of the Fallen Angels is the stuff of Fallen People....
Just off work, too tired, gtg,
Rick
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Post by _Derek » Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:22 am

I've been studying these verses and related topics for about six years and want to continue some place online. (I know another forum that studies these kinds of topics: an ex-JW board, though many of them are not Christians or even theists). I can and will post there if this is offensive to you or anyone else, Derek; just let me know, please. I've seen some threads on Nephilim at this forum. As I recall, most posters there saw it as "fallen angels mating with women". I haven't met anyone who agrees with my "working interpretation" (NET Bible Study Note no. 1).
Hey Rick,

You aren't offending me at all bro! Post on. I would rather convince you you're wrong than you go somewhere else! :D Gotta go to work. Get back later.

God bless,
Last edited by _AlexRodriguez on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Derek

Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7

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