Steve7150,
So besides what you know from the scripture and you talking to the Lord and Him dying for you; tell me more about your interaction with Him?
Tell me how He has spoken to you. Tell me more about the intimate relationship you have with the Lord.
At this point, I'm more interested in hearing what He has done rather than hearing what you believe your prayers and worship to be by faith. I hope that doesn't sound sarcastic.
Experiences and knowledge
Re: Experiences and knowledge
For what it's worth, here's been some recent ways I've been experiencing interactions with the Lord:
-When I'm meeting up to counsel, evangelize or disciple people I notice a big differences when I ask the Lord to intervene in super-natural ways. Someone was coming over to meet up and talk about the Lord...they had grown up in church so were familiar with the bible but deciding if they were really going to make their own choice to follow the Lord. I was asking God to lead us to the scriptures we should discuss and opened up Luke 9:23-24 as a possible text to look at. When the guy came in I asked what he had been processing with what we've been talking about: He in his own words basically spoke every truth mentioned in the Luke passage which was fascinating to me (He wasn't thinking of the passage.) Then I was able to show Him what scripture my bible was open to and confirm to Him that seems to be exactly what God is telling Him to do. This was awesome because He could see God's hand in the process, not just what I wanted to tell Him.
-A while back I had a conflict with an older Christian man I was close to and looked up to. I was struggling with hurt feelings and wondering if I should say something, but I didn't want to add fuel to a previously explosive situation. I was asking the Lord for wisdom on knowing whether to let it go or say something. At a prayer and time of waiting on the Lord with other believers, a woman stood up with no knowledge of my situation and shared that the Lord had put on her heart the passage from Samuel when the Lord spoke to the boy samuel and led to confrontation with Eli. I forget the exact terms of what she said, but basically an exhortation to speak truth even to those we're intimidated by. It was very clearly a response from God to my prayer and gave me the courage to have that conversation that mended our relationship.
-I was on staff at a church as a worship leader and biblical counselor and as I was in prayer one day for the various groups I began praying for the young adults in the church. A though suddenly popped in my head 'You're going to shepherd these people.' It didn't strike me as necessarily the voice of God and was strange since a pastor was already overseeing the group. I just tucked it away and a couple weeks later the pastor overseeing the group resigned to go start His own church. I still said nothing but people began approaching me asking if I had considered taking over the group. I knew then it was the Lord's voice that had prompted me previously and it gave me the affirmation that I should put my energy into overseeing the group.
Anyways, lots of other little stories like this, but I love the way God shows up in little ways to answer prayers and let me know what I need to know. I've also noticed very often that when I meet with other believers to pray and share what God is putting on our hearts there is a theme that quickly stands out that runs through what we all share...this confirms to us the message God wants us to hear as well.
Like every relationship, I'm sure it's unique with each person in each season of their life. I've also thought often about the different ways the relationship is described (Steve talks about this in one of his messages): Father, King, Lord. A father might love to take His son fishing to just hang out and be intimate, but also expects his son to be obedient in day-to-day life when it's not time to hang. I think the Lord knows when we need that intimate feeling of connection, and also calls us to be faithful when we don't have that feeling.
There was also a time when I was in a worship service and felt the power of God pouring over me so strongly...I didn't know the reason why but it was incredible. After that meeting in a prayer group a guy began to manifest the indications of demonic activity and for some reason I had no fear and knew I had the authority to command it to leave and it did...I'm not usually that bold, but I think the Lord's Spirit just encouraged me and filled me earlier in the service so I would be equipped for what I would need to do.
I think it's important that we use the scripture to define our experience and not the other way around. Nevertheless, I believe God is living and active in His people's lives and I tend to see it in proportion to my obedience and faith.
-When I'm meeting up to counsel, evangelize or disciple people I notice a big differences when I ask the Lord to intervene in super-natural ways. Someone was coming over to meet up and talk about the Lord...they had grown up in church so were familiar with the bible but deciding if they were really going to make their own choice to follow the Lord. I was asking God to lead us to the scriptures we should discuss and opened up Luke 9:23-24 as a possible text to look at. When the guy came in I asked what he had been processing with what we've been talking about: He in his own words basically spoke every truth mentioned in the Luke passage which was fascinating to me (He wasn't thinking of the passage.) Then I was able to show Him what scripture my bible was open to and confirm to Him that seems to be exactly what God is telling Him to do. This was awesome because He could see God's hand in the process, not just what I wanted to tell Him.
-A while back I had a conflict with an older Christian man I was close to and looked up to. I was struggling with hurt feelings and wondering if I should say something, but I didn't want to add fuel to a previously explosive situation. I was asking the Lord for wisdom on knowing whether to let it go or say something. At a prayer and time of waiting on the Lord with other believers, a woman stood up with no knowledge of my situation and shared that the Lord had put on her heart the passage from Samuel when the Lord spoke to the boy samuel and led to confrontation with Eli. I forget the exact terms of what she said, but basically an exhortation to speak truth even to those we're intimidated by. It was very clearly a response from God to my prayer and gave me the courage to have that conversation that mended our relationship.
-I was on staff at a church as a worship leader and biblical counselor and as I was in prayer one day for the various groups I began praying for the young adults in the church. A though suddenly popped in my head 'You're going to shepherd these people.' It didn't strike me as necessarily the voice of God and was strange since a pastor was already overseeing the group. I just tucked it away and a couple weeks later the pastor overseeing the group resigned to go start His own church. I still said nothing but people began approaching me asking if I had considered taking over the group. I knew then it was the Lord's voice that had prompted me previously and it gave me the affirmation that I should put my energy into overseeing the group.
Anyways, lots of other little stories like this, but I love the way God shows up in little ways to answer prayers and let me know what I need to know. I've also noticed very often that when I meet with other believers to pray and share what God is putting on our hearts there is a theme that quickly stands out that runs through what we all share...this confirms to us the message God wants us to hear as well.
Like every relationship, I'm sure it's unique with each person in each season of their life. I've also thought often about the different ways the relationship is described (Steve talks about this in one of his messages): Father, King, Lord. A father might love to take His son fishing to just hang out and be intimate, but also expects his son to be obedient in day-to-day life when it's not time to hang. I think the Lord knows when we need that intimate feeling of connection, and also calls us to be faithful when we don't have that feeling.
There was also a time when I was in a worship service and felt the power of God pouring over me so strongly...I didn't know the reason why but it was incredible. After that meeting in a prayer group a guy began to manifest the indications of demonic activity and for some reason I had no fear and knew I had the authority to command it to leave and it did...I'm not usually that bold, but I think the Lord's Spirit just encouraged me and filled me earlier in the service so I would be equipped for what I would need to do.
I think it's important that we use the scripture to define our experience and not the other way around. Nevertheless, I believe God is living and active in His people's lives and I tend to see it in proportion to my obedience and faith.
Re: Experiences and knowledge
Thanks for sharing those stories Isaac.
Re: Experiences and knowledge
I agree, Isaac, thanks for sharing.
In the last couple of years I have been hanging around more people who I call "prophetic"-- those who seem to hear from the Lord and share it with other people. I even took a class about learning to develop this ability. I've learned to pay more attention to things that come into my head- especially during devotional times and worship times. But it doesn't come easy for me at all. Maybe my mind is too cluttered. My wife, however, often says she has very strong impressions and visions from the Lord, especially during worship.
During a deep worship service a couple of weeks ago, I had a very strong "vision" or impression of being with Jesus in certain scenes from the Bible- in other words I believe I was allowed to really experience what it was like to be with Him. It was very powerful.
TK
In the last couple of years I have been hanging around more people who I call "prophetic"-- those who seem to hear from the Lord and share it with other people. I even took a class about learning to develop this ability. I've learned to pay more attention to things that come into my head- especially during devotional times and worship times. But it doesn't come easy for me at all. Maybe my mind is too cluttered. My wife, however, often says she has very strong impressions and visions from the Lord, especially during worship.
During a deep worship service a couple of weeks ago, I had a very strong "vision" or impression of being with Jesus in certain scenes from the Bible- in other words I believe I was allowed to really experience what it was like to be with Him. It was very powerful.
TK
Re: Experiences and knowledge
Sorry... I hit submit before I finished.
Again though, thanks for sharing those stories.
One of the tough things that I've been trying to reconcile is the fact that others (outside of christianity) have those stories as well. Also, there are those among us that have conflicting doctrines that get confirmations and have experiences that have lead them to a certain places... that we may or may not agree with.
And that is one of the problems I see with calling our experiences intimate interactions with the Lord.
I'll give you one example. I had two friends that were debating about the whole end times thing. Well, the one them is a dispensationalist and had told the preterist, "I have prayed about it and God has show me that belief is wrong". The preterist then replied and testified of the same experience only to the other end.
That is the short version, but they both had their stories of an experience and confirmations.
That is probably something that happens a lot to folks on this forum. Both to people you agree with, and people you don't agree with.
Following me?
Again though, thanks for sharing those stories.
One of the tough things that I've been trying to reconcile is the fact that others (outside of christianity) have those stories as well. Also, there are those among us that have conflicting doctrines that get confirmations and have experiences that have lead them to a certain places... that we may or may not agree with.
And that is one of the problems I see with calling our experiences intimate interactions with the Lord.
I'll give you one example. I had two friends that were debating about the whole end times thing. Well, the one them is a dispensationalist and had told the preterist, "I have prayed about it and God has show me that belief is wrong". The preterist then replied and testified of the same experience only to the other end.
That is the short version, but they both had their stories of an experience and confirmations.
That is probably something that happens a lot to folks on this forum. Both to people you agree with, and people you don't agree with.
Following me?
Re: Experiences and knowledge
Tell me how He has spoken to you. Tell me more about the intimate relationship you have with the Lord.
At this point, I'm more interested in hearing what He has done rather than hearing what you believe your prayers and worship to be by faith. I hope that doesn't sound sarcastic.RV
I believe he speaks to my human spirit through the Holy Spirit and it can manifest in peace or wisdom or patience or just knowing He cares about me and my family and i thank him everyday. Since i believe through Jesus i received his grace (John 1) and all spiritual blessings (Eph 1) it gives me confidence that all things whether personal or business will work out even though in my own strength i may be scared to death. These things do work out and i attribute it all to God.
Once not long ago i had an encounter with an angel , a tall older lady in a green dress who was in a post office parking lot. She asked for help with something flashing on her dashboard which was an oxygen sensor light warning, and something i would never know had i not had the same problem a few weeks earlier. I walked to my car a few feet away , turned around and her and the car were gone. It was not possible in the physical world for her and the car to dissapear in a few seconds. She did'nt give me any prophecy or revelation, just took up my time but perhaps i was saved from a bad incident.
My mother in law who had lung surgery for cancer three years ago was told that there would be side effects even if the surgery was successful , we prayed healing scriptures together, she had perfect peace and the surgery was successful with no side effects , at the age of 85.
A lawyer in my bible group has a prison ministry, one of the prisoners he ministers to had a broken ankle and was in the prison cafeteria and could'nt walk. His broken ankle was healed in an instant , from one moment to the other and from that incident many muslims in that prison came to the Lord.
The Lord does move but for me these visible signs are exciting but not the rock i build my house on.
At this point, I'm more interested in hearing what He has done rather than hearing what you believe your prayers and worship to be by faith. I hope that doesn't sound sarcastic.RV
I believe he speaks to my human spirit through the Holy Spirit and it can manifest in peace or wisdom or patience or just knowing He cares about me and my family and i thank him everyday. Since i believe through Jesus i received his grace (John 1) and all spiritual blessings (Eph 1) it gives me confidence that all things whether personal or business will work out even though in my own strength i may be scared to death. These things do work out and i attribute it all to God.
Once not long ago i had an encounter with an angel , a tall older lady in a green dress who was in a post office parking lot. She asked for help with something flashing on her dashboard which was an oxygen sensor light warning, and something i would never know had i not had the same problem a few weeks earlier. I walked to my car a few feet away , turned around and her and the car were gone. It was not possible in the physical world for her and the car to dissapear in a few seconds. She did'nt give me any prophecy or revelation, just took up my time but perhaps i was saved from a bad incident.
My mother in law who had lung surgery for cancer three years ago was told that there would be side effects even if the surgery was successful , we prayed healing scriptures together, she had perfect peace and the surgery was successful with no side effects , at the age of 85.
A lawyer in my bible group has a prison ministry, one of the prisoners he ministers to had a broken ankle and was in the prison cafeteria and could'nt walk. His broken ankle was healed in an instant , from one moment to the other and from that incident many muslims in that prison came to the Lord.
The Lord does move but for me these visible signs are exciting but not the rock i build my house on.
Re: Experiences and knowledge
RV :
I totally see why you feel conflicted over this. As I was thinking about it, an experience from many years back popped into my head: Here's the brief version. I was wrestling with understanding what some scriptures meant and had prayed to God to give me understanding with them. Shortly after, while flipping through a 'christian' magazine I saw an add for a book that addressed the very things I had been asking the Lord about. I figured this was my answer to prayer. I bought the book and even in reading it felt excited that God was giving me clarity on the very things I asked Him about. When sharing some of the contents of the book with a strong Christian man I knew, He cautioned me that some of it didn't seem on. I wasn't sure what to think so I just put those topics on the back burner. Over the following year or two, as I continued to study the word, God brought an absolute clarity to the issues and it actually massively contradicted what the book had to say.
Looking back on that, it seems to me that after I asked for guidance, perhaps the enemy moved in to try to give me a false solution. Had I not allowed the word to keep correcting me (and even have the right to trump what my experience seemed to be saying), I could have been deceived. This is why I think we always have to interpret experience by God's word and not God's word by experience. We are fallible, but God's words are perfect. Being fallible, however, doesn't mean we're always wrong or always miss the point though...we just know we can very easily deceived or misled by lies or our flesh.
So I think in regards to others (non-believers) having experiences...only God knows what the details of each situation are but we can be sure of a couple things: 1. There are only two spiritual teams. Our enemy is a deceiver and we are warned of false signs. 2. God's Spirit is in the business of drawing on people's hearts and knows the best way to do it for the heart that loves truth...He seems ready to move in our imperfect places to engage us when He finds even a little faith. Again, only the Lord knows each scenario and who's motivating what.
We know the word will be ever-correcting our foolishness and the more I study the more I see how my heart can be blinded by different motivations or pressures. But I'm always encouraged to remember that according to Romans 12:1-2, the way we arrive at knowing God's will is by consistently offering our lives as a living sacrifice. As we continue to die to ourselves I think it continues to minimize those other motivations and pressures in us so we can see more clearly. It is the pure in heart that see God, they are unmixed and un-dilluted in their perspective. I believe many who appear very religious or even smart about the Word are far from this pure heart and so don't see God and His truths as clearly. Certainly the Pharisees knew the scriptures very well but missed the one they were testifying about.
I totally see why you feel conflicted over this. As I was thinking about it, an experience from many years back popped into my head: Here's the brief version. I was wrestling with understanding what some scriptures meant and had prayed to God to give me understanding with them. Shortly after, while flipping through a 'christian' magazine I saw an add for a book that addressed the very things I had been asking the Lord about. I figured this was my answer to prayer. I bought the book and even in reading it felt excited that God was giving me clarity on the very things I asked Him about. When sharing some of the contents of the book with a strong Christian man I knew, He cautioned me that some of it didn't seem on. I wasn't sure what to think so I just put those topics on the back burner. Over the following year or two, as I continued to study the word, God brought an absolute clarity to the issues and it actually massively contradicted what the book had to say.
Looking back on that, it seems to me that after I asked for guidance, perhaps the enemy moved in to try to give me a false solution. Had I not allowed the word to keep correcting me (and even have the right to trump what my experience seemed to be saying), I could have been deceived. This is why I think we always have to interpret experience by God's word and not God's word by experience. We are fallible, but God's words are perfect. Being fallible, however, doesn't mean we're always wrong or always miss the point though...we just know we can very easily deceived or misled by lies or our flesh.
So I think in regards to others (non-believers) having experiences...only God knows what the details of each situation are but we can be sure of a couple things: 1. There are only two spiritual teams. Our enemy is a deceiver and we are warned of false signs. 2. God's Spirit is in the business of drawing on people's hearts and knows the best way to do it for the heart that loves truth...He seems ready to move in our imperfect places to engage us when He finds even a little faith. Again, only the Lord knows each scenario and who's motivating what.
We know the word will be ever-correcting our foolishness and the more I study the more I see how my heart can be blinded by different motivations or pressures. But I'm always encouraged to remember that according to Romans 12:1-2, the way we arrive at knowing God's will is by consistently offering our lives as a living sacrifice. As we continue to die to ourselves I think it continues to minimize those other motivations and pressures in us so we can see more clearly. It is the pure in heart that see God, they are unmixed and un-dilluted in their perspective. I believe many who appear very religious or even smart about the Word are far from this pure heart and so don't see God and His truths as clearly. Certainly the Pharisees knew the scriptures very well but missed the one they were testifying about.
Re: Experiences and knowledge
It sounds like this was an experience that you had no?IsaacJ wrote:Over the following year or two, as I continued to study the word, God brought an absolute clarity to the issues and it actually massively contradicted what the book had to say.
When you say "God brought an absolute clarity"; what did that look like?
Re: Experiences and knowledge
Hey Isaac...
When you answer that question, could you also answer a few others? I may start another thread.
1. Would you mind sharing what scripture you needed clarity on?
2. Would you mind sharing your interpretation?
3. Would you mind sharing what you thought it meant previous to getting clarity?
4. What are the consequences for those that hold a different view?
The reason I ask:
When you answer that question, could you also answer a few others? I may start another thread.
1. Would you mind sharing what scripture you needed clarity on?
2. Would you mind sharing your interpretation?
3. Would you mind sharing what you thought it meant previous to getting clarity?
4. What are the consequences for those that hold a different view?
The reason I ask:
Isaacj wrote:Looking back on that, it seems to me that after I asked for guidance, perhaps the enemy moved in to try to give me a false solution. Had I not allowed the word to keep correcting me (and even have the right to trump what my experience seemed to be saying), I could have been deceived.
Re: Experiences and knowledge
I suppose you can say it's an experience to get absolute clarity, but it was a clarity that came from what scripture said that wasn't previously at the forefront of my mind.
It's been so long I don't remember all the ins and outs of what I was wrestling with, but here's the gist (is that actually a word?)
I was essentially wrestling with some of Jesus' words (I think many from the sermon on the mount.) It seemed so works based to me and I didn't know how to reconcile that with being saved by grace through faith.
The book I came across is titled 'The gospel solution.' If I remember correctly, the author was a pastor or a teacher and as He was teaching through the book of Matthew, He was wrestling with questions like mine. His 'solution' then, was to say that since Jesus was focused on ministering to the Jews, the ONLY application of ALL of his teaching was to break-them harder with the law. (I do believe His teachings have this effect). But since He believed this was ALL they were for, He encourages the reader to not think of any of Jesus' teachings as having an application for today. I actually e-mailed some with the author to confirm this was actually what He meant, and He believed firmly the teachings of Jesus don't have any relevance today in a believers life. It's ultimately anti-nomian teaching at it's root. His case sounded very convincing to me though, and I was starting to believe it.
Some of the passages that brought clarity to me about this issue. Matthew 28 -the Great Commission...Jesus' disciples are commanded to make disciples and 'teach them to observe ALL THINGS He has commanded.' And just more study through the NT showed me that most of the letters were doing exactly that...affirming all the things Jesus taught in the sermon on the mount. Paul's statements about the listing of wicked people who would not inherit the kingdom also showed me that the same author who spoke of salvation by grace through faith also spoke about a moral quality that the citizens of the kingdom have. I guess the passage that pulls it together was the James 2:17 verse about faith without works being dead and unable to save. We are saved by faith, but if we have real faith it's a transforming faith.
As far as what the consequence would be of believing the author's teaching...well, at it's root it undermines the authority Jesus' teachings have in my life (especially if I don't find some of them repeated in the rest of the NT.) Ultimately, I think it would have been possible to de-rail me into throwing out the obedience that must accompany my faith. 1 John has huge warnings about claiming we belong to God but not walking as Jesus did(1 John 2:3,6).
To me, an issue like this is essential to be right on and unmistakable to the honest student of scripture. Some other topics of scripture I think we need to have an extra amount of patient humility with how we approach (and don't be too hasty to assume we've found the answer.) Things like eschatology, prophecy-fulfilments, calvinism/arminianism and such. Giants of our faith have found themselves landing on different positions of these deep topics for so long and I think that should temper us from jumping to conclusions too quickly on them (even though I believe there is only one truth about them.) Other things, like applying Jesus' teachings to our life, have been a steady conclusion by God's people. Obviously, if we say 'I believe God showed me the truth on this' and scripture later proves us wrong, it's best to call it what it was -a wrong conclusion on our part.
My posts are too long. Sorry.
It's been so long I don't remember all the ins and outs of what I was wrestling with, but here's the gist (is that actually a word?)
I was essentially wrestling with some of Jesus' words (I think many from the sermon on the mount.) It seemed so works based to me and I didn't know how to reconcile that with being saved by grace through faith.
The book I came across is titled 'The gospel solution.' If I remember correctly, the author was a pastor or a teacher and as He was teaching through the book of Matthew, He was wrestling with questions like mine. His 'solution' then, was to say that since Jesus was focused on ministering to the Jews, the ONLY application of ALL of his teaching was to break-them harder with the law. (I do believe His teachings have this effect). But since He believed this was ALL they were for, He encourages the reader to not think of any of Jesus' teachings as having an application for today. I actually e-mailed some with the author to confirm this was actually what He meant, and He believed firmly the teachings of Jesus don't have any relevance today in a believers life. It's ultimately anti-nomian teaching at it's root. His case sounded very convincing to me though, and I was starting to believe it.
Some of the passages that brought clarity to me about this issue. Matthew 28 -the Great Commission...Jesus' disciples are commanded to make disciples and 'teach them to observe ALL THINGS He has commanded.' And just more study through the NT showed me that most of the letters were doing exactly that...affirming all the things Jesus taught in the sermon on the mount. Paul's statements about the listing of wicked people who would not inherit the kingdom also showed me that the same author who spoke of salvation by grace through faith also spoke about a moral quality that the citizens of the kingdom have. I guess the passage that pulls it together was the James 2:17 verse about faith without works being dead and unable to save. We are saved by faith, but if we have real faith it's a transforming faith.
As far as what the consequence would be of believing the author's teaching...well, at it's root it undermines the authority Jesus' teachings have in my life (especially if I don't find some of them repeated in the rest of the NT.) Ultimately, I think it would have been possible to de-rail me into throwing out the obedience that must accompany my faith. 1 John has huge warnings about claiming we belong to God but not walking as Jesus did(1 John 2:3,6).
To me, an issue like this is essential to be right on and unmistakable to the honest student of scripture. Some other topics of scripture I think we need to have an extra amount of patient humility with how we approach (and don't be too hasty to assume we've found the answer.) Things like eschatology, prophecy-fulfilments, calvinism/arminianism and such. Giants of our faith have found themselves landing on different positions of these deep topics for so long and I think that should temper us from jumping to conclusions too quickly on them (even though I believe there is only one truth about them.) Other things, like applying Jesus' teachings to our life, have been a steady conclusion by God's people. Obviously, if we say 'I believe God showed me the truth on this' and scripture later proves us wrong, it's best to call it what it was -a wrong conclusion on our part.
My posts are too long. Sorry.