sleep or new life after death

[Guest]

BTW I know of folks that will not be cremated because they are suppose to reunited with their bodies later, so feel they need to be buried in tack, so to speak. What do you think of this? Thanks Glow

Well, wouldn't that mean that every martyr that was burned at the stake is out of luck? Or people that die in firey crashes?

[Guest]

Michelle

sure would as many other types of death, and the body decomposes anyways. I thought it was strange and wondered if anyone had heard of anything like that before. Glow

[Guest]

My understanding is that the bible speaks of conditional immortality. So when believers die their spirits are with Christ but their bodies die. At the second coming they receive new glorified imperishable bodies much different then their old perishable bodies (1 Cor 15.55). IMO unbelievers simply go to sleep until the second coming because if they were conscience in hades they would already be judged and judgement is not rendered until Christ's judgement seat. The "rich man and Lazarus" IMO is about the jews looking to Father Abraham for salvation and is not about hell. So our old bodies will dissolve whether we are burned at the stake or creamated it does'nt matter.

[Guest]

Glow, When we who put on the incorruptible body it will be resurrected and made whole. If God can create the heavens and the earth and speak it into existence, he can sure put a burned up body back together or a dismembered body back together. Remember all thinks are possible with God. I would also like to say that we who have believed on the Lord Jesus have already passed on from death to life. This body we live in is a earthly vessel and it will eventually wear out. It will as you say enter into a sleep. Once Christ comes for His church, we shall forever been changed, (our body), just like Him and we will have a glorified body.

[Guest]

Glow, the answer to your question is thoroughly answered in the scriptures you quoted. Believers are talked about as sleeping because from sleep there is an awakening point. The scriptures do not say that any part of the human is conscious in any way, Body, soul, spirit. Those are the the three parts, of the whole man as in Genesis, that God, Formed, made and created. Adam lost his spirit and Jesus gained it back for all that believe in him. The Lazarus thing is a parable and Abraham's bosom was a phase used by the Pharisees. Tartarus is a spirit prison were God put the Angles that corrupted the human race and caused the reason for the Flood 'every thought was continually evil all the time'. The Heaven hell thing is a Pagan Greek concept hat crept into the Church, with that couture. Jesus did not say the thief would be with him in paradise that very day. Look closely at that scripture, Jesus was not in paradise that very day, he was dead and buried for three days. We must understand the Greek a little to understand this, they did not have a word for grave, as they thought you either went to mount Olympus and lived with the gods or to the underworld to live with hades, depending on if you were a good or a bad Greek. These subjects are fully covered online at the link I will give you. Please take the time to read along with your Bible to see these truths. The Church has played into the hands of the Adversary and affirmed his original lie, 'thou shall not surely die'.

http://www.truthortradition.com/modules ... w_topic=15

Philippians 1:21 (To die is gain)

Philippians 1:21 (NIV)
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

This verse says that “to die is gain,” from which it is taught that the “gain” is going to heaven to be with God. Of course, this insidiously infers that death is not an enemy after all. It should be no surprise that once again the context in which this verse is set is critical to understanding it. The “furtherance,” or gain, of the gospel is the theme of the first chapter of Philippians (see verses 17 and 27).

Philippians 1:12-14 (NIV)
(12) Now I want you to know, brothers, that what has happened to me has really served to advance the gospel.
(13) As a result, it has become clear throughout the whole palace guard and to everyone else that I am in chains for Christ.
(14) Because of my chains, most of the brothers in the Lord have been encouraged to speak the word of God more courageously and fearlessly.

Paul saw that his imprisonment, certainly not a personal gain, had served to further the gospel of Christ. Likewise, Paul was considering that his death, even less a personal gain, might also result in the furtherance of the gospel and in Christ being magnified.

Philippians 1:18-20 (NIV)
(18) But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.Yes, and I will continue to rejoice,
(19) for I know that through your prayers and the help given by the Spirit of Jesus Christ, what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance.
(20) I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or death.

In verse 20, both life and death relate to Christ being magnified, and verse 21 reiterates the point. Paul’s hope was that, whether he lived or died, the result would be gain for Christ. In verse 23, he then indicates that there is something far better than either living or dying.

Philippians 1:23 (NIV)
I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;

What was Paul’s only alternative to living or dying, which was “better by far” than either of those? It was departing and being with Christ. As previously stated, Paul knew that the only time he could depart and be with Christ was when Christ appears from heaven to get him.

Putting on our new bodies and meeting the Lord in the air is far better than either living or dying. This is what every Christian, not just Paul, should eagerly anticipate as he lives for Christ now. Nowhere in this context is the idea that Paul’s death would immediately bring him into the presence of Christ. 2 Timothy shows Paul’s understanding of this:

2 Timothy 4:8
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love His appearing.

It has been well said that: “If contemporary believers shared with Paul his clarity of vision and faith in the future, there would be no temptation to read into his writings the notion of a conscious pre-resurrection state.” [7] Paul knew that he would receive a crown of righteousness when Jesus Christ comes to gather together his Church. This is the day we will meet him in the air “... and so [by meeting him in the air] shall we ever be with the Lord,” where he will be, first in his Millenial Kingdom and then on the new earth in Paradise.

Ya I know Homer an sean it is rude to tell the truth and to explain it thoroughly by pasting.

[Guest]

JesusFollower,

Ya I know Homer an sean it rude to tell the truth and to explain it thoroughly by pasting.

FYI - The martyr-complex doesn't add anything your arguments


Phillipians 1:20-26
20 as it is my eager expectation and hope that I will not be at all ashamed, but that with full courage now as always Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or by death. 21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. 24 But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account. 25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all, for your progress and joy in the faith, 26 so that in me you may have ample cause to glory in Christ Jesus, because of my coming to you again.

What was Paul’s only alternative to living or dying, which was “better by far” than either of those? It was departing and being with Christ. As previously stated, Paul knew that the only time he could depart and be with Christ was when Christ appears from heaven to get him.

Your explanation introduces a third option not found in the immediate context. Paul is contrasting between 2 options (in red): remaining alive or dying. In verse 23, Paul again describes 2 options (blue) contrasting departing to be with Christ (death) with remaining alive to serve the church (life). Reading the Rapture into verse 23 forces something awkward (at best)or completely foreign (at worst) onto the text.

In Christ,
Dave

[Guest]

Dave, they are not my arguments as you put it they are the reality of scripture and the whole of context must be considered. At death the next thing Paul will see is Christ Jesus, and any believer for that matter, at his Coming 2 Cor. 15.
22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Dave try to concentrate on scripture rather than personally attacking me and my position because it is foreign to you.

Thorough study mens reading more than one paragraph.

[Guest]

Dave, they are not my arguments as you put it they are the reality of scripture...

Personally, I attempt to approach Scripture with the understanding that my current understanding of it may be faulted somehow. I hope to remain continually open-minded to different views on the Scriptures, providing that they fit the text. To be honest, I'm don't think that there is a man, organization or web-site that has a 100% perfect understanding of Scripture because we are all fallible. Maybe God intends for us to wrestle with these differences in order for him to continually conform us into the image of Jesus. In this realization, I attempt to take a humble approach to my current understanding of Scripture.

...and the whole of context must be considered.

Thorough study mens reading more than one paragraph.

It is my understanding that the local context of a passage cannot be forced to contain a concept, even if the concept is taught elsewhere.

At death the next thing Paul will see is Christ Jesus, and any believer for that matter

1 Corinthians 15:20-28
20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God [2] has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

As I see it, this passage speaks of the timing of the resurrection of the dead. I'm unable to locate where it addresses whether or not believers spirits are unconscious or aware until that time. Please show me where you see it.

Dave try to concentrate on scripture rather than personally attacking me and my position because it is foreign to you.

My apologies if you feel personally attacked. It is never my intention. I'm focusing on your postions regarding the passages you list.

If others reading this discussion see my responses as antithetical to the spirit of Christ, please let me know.

In Christ,
Dave

[Guest]

This is in response to Sean's September 15 post.
Sean, I don't see any of the scriptures you quoted as indicating that we have immediate consciousness after death. Let's consider them:

1Jo 5:11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jo 5:12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
1Jo 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

I have been trying to determine why you feel the above passages indicate immediate consciousness. Is it that "having eternal life" implies that we will never truly die, but "walk through a door" into the next life? However, "having eternal life" does not necessarily mean that we are sharing in that life in the present.

A man might say to his son, "Everything I possess is yours." The father may have said these words to indicate that, in his will, he has left everything he owns to his son. He doesn't mean that the son is now owns of all of the father's possessions, to do with as he pleases. The story of "the prodigal son" provides a similar example.

Luke 15:29 -31... but he [the older son] answered his father, "Lo, these many years I have served you, and I never disobeyed your command; yet you never gave me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends. But when this son of yours came, who has devoured your living with harlots, you killed for him the fatted calf!"
And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours.

So to "have eternal life" means that the promise will be fulfilled, and that we shall have it when we are raised again to life. That will be the time when "this mortal" shall have "put on immortality". Now we are mortal, but then we shall be immortal.

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell (gehenna).

My guess as to why this passage for you means immediate consciousness after death, is that you have a Platonian concept of the soul. Perhaps you think of it as "the real you" which people cannot kill because it survives death. But that is not the Biblical concept of "soul". God created Adam as a physical body. When He breathed the breath of life (spirit) into him, Adam became a living soul. The body that God formed didn't receive a soul; it became a soul! The Hebrew word "nephesh" essentially means "being". The body that God formed became a living being when God breathed the breath of life into it. In verse 19, animals and birds are also called "living beings" (same word "nephesh"). If the word "nephesh" means "soul" in the Greek sense, then the following passage would make no sense:

Numbers 6:6 All the days of his separation to Yahweh, he shall not go near to a dead soul.

For the Greeks, the soul is immortal, and so it would be impossible for a "dead soul" to exist. Of course, the King James does not translate "nephesh" as "soul" in this case. It translates the word as "body". The NASB translates it a "person".

In the New Testament, the Greek word corresponding to "nephesh" is "psycha". This word also means "being" or sometimes "self". Let's examine a few passages containing this word:

Luke 12:19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; take your ease, eat, drink, be merry.’

To whom or to what is the man talking? Is he talking to his "mind, will, and emotions"? That doesn't make much sense. Is he talking to the "real person"? Impossible. For if the "soul" is the real person --- the conscious entity, who is the man, who is addressing him?

Is the man not talking to himself?
"I will say to myself, Self, you have ample goods..." True, today when you talk to yourself, you would probably not address yourself as "Self". You might call yourself by name. "I will say to myself, Joe, you have ample goods..."

Mark 14:34 And he said to them, "My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch."

These words of our Lord may remind you of some of the passages in Psalms, where David uses similar language. If the "soul" is the real you, how could you talk about your soul being sorrowful, as if it were another person? Is our Lord not simply saying, "My self is very sorrowful"? If He has simply said, "I am very sorrowful," the meaning would have been similar.

Back to Matthew 10:28.

Fear not those who kill the body, but cannot kill the being.

Someone can destroy your body, but cannot destroy what you essentially are (your being). What you essentially are will continue when you are raised to life.

Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell (gehenna)..

This could be taken as support for the doctrine of annihilation of the wicked. But I think it means that God can not only destroy your body in gehenna, but can also destroy what you essentially are (a wicked or unregenerate person, presumably if you go to Gehenna) by means of His severe mercy, His painful remediation. What you essentially are must be destroyed so that the new person (new in character, not in identity) may emerge. This is what happens here and now when a person is truly regenerated.

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years..

Doesn't this passage support the truth that when you're dead, you're dead ---- until the resurrection? John saw in his vision the souls (beings) who had nor worshiped the beast. Then they came to life. Prior to this, they had been dead.

Matthew 22:31,32 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living." .

Verses 31 and 32 form a single sentence. In my opinion, it's misleading to quote vs 32 and omit 31. Jesus made clear that He was talking about the resurrection of the dead, when He quoted this passage. He introduced His comment with, "Concerning the resurrection of the dead..." He was speaking to the Sadducees who did not believe that people were raised from the dead. For God to be the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, it is necessary that they be raised to life again, so that His relationship to them would continue.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,
Joh 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?".

Again, Jesus speaks of the resurrection. He is the source of the resurrection and of life. Whoever believes in Him, thought he die, yet shall he live. That is, he shall be raised to life again. Now after speaking of the resurrection in this way, would Jesus now say that everyone living and believing in Him shall never die? That the resurrection is unnecessary? In my opinion, and as I understand Koinonia Greek, I propose that the sentence has been mistranslated.

The words are literally "should, no way, die into the age". The word "die" is a second aorist subjunctive, and not a future indicative as "he shall live" is in verse 25. There is no indication of time in an aorist subjunctive. It may be a continous action of "dying" or it may be a single act of dying. As I understand it, those who now live and believe in Him will not continue to be in a state of death right into the next age. Rather they will be resurrected at the beginning of the next age when Jesus returns. If you think my translation is "out to lunch", consider how several other versions render verse 26:

and every one who is living and believing in me shall not die-to the age. (Young's Literal Translation 1898)

And, no one who liveth again and believeth on me, shall in anywise die, unto times age–abiding.
(Rotherham 1902)

And every one that liveth and believeth in me shall not die for ever. (The Catholic Douay Version 1899) .

Note: When the Greek noun "aion" (age) or the adjective "aionios" (going from age to age, permanent) appears in the New Testament, some translators often get "eternal" or "for ever" into their translation. But even the phrase "shall not die forever" seems to suggest not remaining in a state of death forever, but being resurrected.

[Guest]

Paidion, at least one other person sees this the way I do, the Greek, Platonist concept crept into The Church with the culture, Paidion lays it out pretty much the way I see it.
It is a lie of the Devil and the Church has played into it well.