Young earth vs. ancient earth- where do you stand?

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_anothersteve
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Post by _anothersteve » Sun Jan 21, 2007 10:57 pm

In the day that they ate from the tree of knowledge, the sentence, "You shall die" became true.
That's how I've understood it as well Paidion.


roblaine wrote
I'm not sure if he could have been more clear
For me it's actually not that clear. It wasn't until the fourth day that the time for days and seasons, as we know them, was, apparently, established. This leaves question marks for me. Therefore, for me, the possibility of the days representing ages or eras of time is a real possibility (and based on scientific evidence probable).

Steve

PS...robliane, I really appreciate your demeanor when discussing this unnecessarily "hot" issue.
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_roblaine
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Post by _roblaine » Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:59 pm

Therefore, for me, the possibility of the days representing ages or eras of time is a real possibility (and based on scientific evidence probable).
I will admitt there may be some scientific evidence that indicates an old earth, but there is alot of scientific evidence that points to a young earth as well. I will try and spend some time on that tomarrow.
PS...robliane, I really appreciate your demeanor when discussing this unnecessarily "hot" issue.
Thanks Steve, I consider this type of debate to be nothing more than a disagreement within the family.

Thnak you,
Robin
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Post by _darin-houston » Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:07 am

I will admitt there may be some scientific evidence that indicates an old earth, but there is alot of scientific evidence that points to a young earth as well. I will try and spend some time on that tomarrow.
I'll look forward to that.

I've seen a lot of the evidence YECs use to support their view, but most of it seems to be just evidence that would be "consistent with" the YEC position, and not anything that would sugget that it was more likely YEC than OEC. I have seen a few things they say disprove the OEC view, but those I've seen are well known in scientific circles with well understood explanations.
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_roblaine
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Post by _roblaine » Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:15 pm

I will list and explain to my knowledge, the evidence that I think is convincing of a young earth. For anyone who has studied the subject at all, I'm sure this is not new evidence for you.

1. Supernovas - Supernovas occur about once every 25 years and leave remnants of gas and dust from the explosion. These remnants should remain visible for millions of years yet there are only 200 recorded supernovas, which would be consistent with a universe that is only 7,000 years old.

2. Comets - As Comets travel through the universe they constantly lose matter. When they pass by the sun they lose matter at a much faster rate. By the size of Comets and the rate at which they lose matter they could exist no longer than 100,000 years. Yet scientists that believe that the universe has been around for billions of years would have you believe one of two things. Either the comets have been around for billions of years (which makes no sense), or an Ort Cloud produces them. An Ort cloud is only a theory and there is no evidence that is exists. I would challenge anyone who makes this claim to show me evidence.

(Because of the complexity of the fallowing evidence I chose to copy the fallowing paragraph for "Answers in Genesis")
3 Earths Magnetic force - The total energy stored in the earth’s magnetic field (“dipole” and “non-dipole”) is decreasing with a half-life of 1,465 (± 165) years. Evolutionary theories explaining this rapid decrease, as well as how the earth could have maintained its magnetic field for billions of years are very complex and inadequate. A much better creationist theory exists. It is straightforward, based on sound physics, and explains many features of the field: its creation, rapid reversals during the Genesis flood, surface intensity decreases and increases until the time of Christ, and a steady decay since then. This theory matches paleomagnetic, historic, and present data, most startlingly with evidence for rapid changes.14 The main result is that the field’s total energy (not surface intensity) has always decayed at least as fast as now. At that rate the field could not be more than 20,000 years old.

(The fallowing information was copied from earthage.org)
4. Carbon-14 in the Atmosphere:
Carbon-14 is produced when radiation from the sun strikes Nitrogen-14 atoms in the earth's upper atmosphere. The earth's atmosphere is not yet saturated with C14. This means that the amount of C14 being produced is greater than the amount that is decaying back to N14. It is estimated that a state of equilibrium would be reached in as little as 30,000 years. Thus, it appears that the earth’s atmosphere is less than 30,000 years old. In fact, the evidence suggests it is less than 10,000 years old. 73,74,75 Some of these estimates place the atmosphere's age at 50,000 years, and others at 100,000 but they each pose serious problems for the standard evolution-based scenarios. This is also and example of why Carbon dating is not accurate.
I wrote the underlined section.

(Fallowing information taken from "Answers in Genesis")
Incosistancy of dating methods - There are many examples where the dating methods give ‘dates’ that are wrong for rocks of known historical age. One example is rock from a dacite lava dome at Mount St Helens volcano. Although we know the rock was formed in 1986, the rock was ‘dated’ by the potassium-argon (K-Ar) method as 0.35 ± 0.05 million years old.9 Another example is K-Ar ‘dating’ of five andesite lava flows from Mt Ngauruhoe in New Zealand. The ‘dates’ ranged from < 0.27 to 3.5 million years—but one lava flow occurred in 1949, three in 1954, and one in 1975!

What happened was that excess radiogenic argon (40Ar*) from the magma (molten rock) was retained in the rock when it solidified. The secular scientific literature also lists many examples of excess 40Ar* causing ‘dates’ of millions of years in rocks of known historical age. This excess appears to have come from the upper mantle, below the earth’s crust. This is consistent with a young world—the argon has had too little time to escape.10

If excess 40Ar* can cause exaggerated dates for rocks of known age, then why should we trust the method for rocks of unknown age?

Another problem is the conflicting dates between different methods. If two methods disagree, then at least one of them must be wrong. For example, in Australia, some wood was buried by a basalt lava flow, as can be seen from the charring. The wood was ‘dated’ by radiocarbon (14C) analysis at about 45,000 years old, but the basalt was ‘dated’ by the K-Ar method at c. 45 million years old!11 Other fossil wood from Upper Permian rock layers has been found with 14C still present. Detectable 14C would have all disintegrated if the wood were really older than 50,000 years, let alone the 250 million years that evolutionists assign to these Upper Permian rock layers.12

According to the Bible’s chronology, great age cannot be the true cause of the observed isotope ratios. Anomalies like the above are good supporting evidence, but we are not yet sure of the true cause in all cases. A group of creationist Ph.D. geologists and physicists from Answers in Genesis, the Creation Research Society, and the Institute for Creation Research are currently working on this topic. Their aim is to find out the precise geochemical and/or geophysical causes of the observed isotope ratios.13 One promising lead is questioning Assumption 1—the initial conditions are not what the evolutionists think, but are affected, for example, by the chemistry of the rock that melted to form the magma.



I could go on listing other Items like, ocean sediment, sodium levels in the ocean, the decreasing size of the sun, lack of human fossils, oil pressure, helium in the atmosphere, population growth, and the earth’s rotation slowing down. All of these give strong evidence that the earth is not billions of years old.

I believe that the issues I brought up make the issue of the earth’s age, not yet decided. So in that case I see no reason to read into the bible something that is not there (billions of years). I will link all the websites that I gather my information from and each person can evaluate for himself or herself if the information is reliable.


http://www.answersingenesis.org/creatio ... dating.asp

http://www.earthage.org/youngearthev/ev ... ing%20Moon:

http://www.earthage.org/youngearthev/ev ... _earth.htm

http://www.nwcreation.net/agedatinglinks.html

Thank you,
Robin
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_TK
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Post by _TK » Fri Apr 06, 2007 8:08 am

Here is an interesting article about a "nearby" (only 60 million light years away which, if my math is correct, is 3.43 x 10 to the 20th power miles) galaxy recently photographed by the Hubble telescope:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 134630.htm

my question is simple (sort of): this photo, per astronomers, shows stars in the process of forming. various sources state that stars take millions of years to form.

the obvious question, then, is since we see stars that are in the process of forming, that means the stars that exist (like our sun) have already formed. what is more, what the hubble telescope is actually capturing is light from that galaxy that left that galaxy 60 million light years ago. some of those stars that the photo show being in the process of forming are, in actuality, formed by now.

How can this be explained from a YE perspective, w/o saying that God made the light already here just to trick us?

TK
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Post by _Paidion » Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:29 am

I don't have much understanding of cosmology. A lot of the theories sound like fairy tales to me. However, the new creationist cosmology makes as much sense to me as any of it. You may wish to consider Dr. Russell Humphreys's book Starlight and Time.

You can read a bit about Dr. Humphreys's theory by going to the following link and scrolling down to "A New Creationist Cosmology":


http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/405.asp
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_roblaine
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Post by _roblaine » Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:53 pm

Hi TK,
I would have to agree with Paidon here. The starlight argument has been made many times by the old earth believers. At the same time this argument has been answered many times by young earth creationists.

Think about Adam and Eve. God created them as adults. If a scientist were able to look at Adam and Eve on the day they were created, they would likely assume that the earth was at least 20 years old, because it is natural to assume that in order for humans to become adults, they must first go through infancy, childhood, and adolescence. However I assume that you believe that God made Adam and Eve to appear as adults when they were created. Why then would it be out of line to assume that God would make starlight appear in the sky without having to wait for millions of years? Personally I would not want to limit God’s abilities in this area.

Thank you,
Robin
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_TK
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Post by _TK » Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:25 pm

Thx- Paidion- you have recommended dr humphreys work before and i checked it out, but of course he has many debunkers as well. i am no astrophysicist or mathematician, so i can't check the figures for myself.

I understand that God COULD have created the starlight already here, but why would He do that? Why be deceptive, for lack of a better word? didnt God expect that someday man would realized that light travels at a certain speed, would use that to calculate distances?

Yes i believe that adam and eve were created as grown adults. but did their skin show signs of age? did their teeth show signs of wear, when newly created? in other words, did God create them to not only LOOK like they were full grown, but also with signs of aging that would come through natural processes?

The starlight issue is extremely problematic for YE (and i am not yet convinced entirely of the OE view), as Greg Koukl points out:

Let me give you an illustration. Astronomers looking through their telescopes see a super nova explosion a billion light years away. (Super nova is when a star explodes and sends its material spewing out into space.) What exist now, at this moment, are the random bits of the old star which, allegedly, is the condition God actually created six to ten thousand years ago.

What this means is that the star the astronomers saw explode never existed. The super nova never happened. This seems to suggest that God created the illusion of the universe and not the universe itself, because that which allegedly exists, we will never see. That which allegedly exists, we'll never see, and that which we actually see never existed.

If that's the case, then I think it's fair to ask ourselves what else we think exists, but doesn't? How much more of the world is just an illusion created by God? How do we know what is real and what is not?

At this point, you can't fall back on the Bible, for two reasons. First, the Bible seems to say that God created actual heavenly bodies, not just images to aid us in some way. Yet in this view, that is not the case. Second, even the words on the pages of my Bible reach my mind through light images. Why should I trust that what I see looking down when I'm reading is real when I can't trust what I see gazing up at the night sky?


It boggles the mind.

TK
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:53 pm

What this means is that the star the astronomers saw explode never existed. The super nova never happened. This seems to suggest that God created the illusion of the universe and not the universe itself, because that which allegedly exists, we will never see. That which allegedly exists, we'll never see, and that which we actually see never existed.

If that's the case, then I think it's fair to ask ourselves what else we think exists, but doesn't? How much more of the world is just an illusion created by God? How do we know what is real and what is not?





We just don't know if God created a mature universe or not or a mature looking earth or why He would have done this but it's possible.
As for myself although i don't know for sure my default position has to be to take things at face value because there is no compelling reason not to , which translated means i have to lean to the OEC.
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_roblaine
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Post by _roblaine » Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:02 pm

Hi TK,

You only addressed Paidon in your last post, but much of what you wrote seemed to be a response to my post, so I thought I would respond.
I understand that God COULD have created the starlight already here, but why would He do that?
Genesis 1:14-17
1:14 Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;
1:15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so.
1:16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also.
1:17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth,


God didn't make the starlight visible from earth in order to be "deceptive". It served His purpose to do so. Almost everything that God does, I am not able to understand how He does them. However, that does not mean God didn't do them, and have a purpose in doing them.
Yes i believe that adam and eve were created as grown adults. but did their skin show signs of age? did their teeth show signs of wear, when newly created? in other words, did God create them to not only LOOK like they were full grown, but also with signs of aging that would come through natural processes?
Why do you thing the universe looks billions of years old? What would a young universe look like, compared with what we have now?

Your argument based on light speed I find less than convincing. Who is in charge here, God or the speed of light?

Thanks,
Robin
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