RO, it's kind of like this: God knows all possible scenarios, and has plans for all of them, otherwise there is no free will. God certainly has the resources to bring to pass his ultimate plan. With Jesus all his eggs were in one basket, so to speak. That is why he was exalted to Lord for his obedience and total dependence on God for his well being. Unlike Adam who thought God was holding back on him so to speak. " it will make you as god's knowing good from evil". They already knew good all they gained is evil.
The story is of Abraham and Isaac is the foreshadowing of the crucification and the resurrection. I've even heard it said that it is possible that scene occurred at Golgotha. Three days off, the boy and I will return, check it out.
Does God foreknow future choices that we make?
-
_Jesusfollower
- Posts: 207
- Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 11:11 pm
- Location: NW
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
-
_Les Wright
- Posts: 105
- Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 11:32 am
I can't resist...
I think I might be with the 'heretics' on this one...
But.. I'm not 100% convinced either way.. I figure:
a) Either God knows everything in the future (because God is outside of time), or
b) God doesn't know the future, yet, God determines some of the future and therefore He has the power to make it happen (even if it influences us free-willing people on earth) - yikes!
Perhaps 'b' is really more predestinarian than it first appears!
Les
I think I might be with the 'heretics' on this one...
But.. I'm not 100% convinced either way.. I figure:
a) Either God knows everything in the future (because God is outside of time), or
b) God doesn't know the future, yet, God determines some of the future and therefore He has the power to make it happen (even if it influences us free-willing people on earth) - yikes!
Perhaps 'b' is really more predestinarian than it first appears!
Les
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
It seems we are a bit audacious in presuming to delineate the bounds of what God is able to do. The finite describing the limits of the infinite!
Consider Romans 11:33: "Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgements and His ways past finding out!
'Nuff said.
Consider Romans 11:33: "Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgements and His ways past finding out!
'Nuff said.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
A Berean
Jim wrote:
"First God created the universe and if He choose to change how mathmatics works within His creation He could make 2 + 2 = 5 IMHO. The univeres, the laws of mathmatics, physics, etc are all Gods creation isn't it? "
The fact that God created as He wished things to be doesn't necessarily mean that there were no limitations upon what He could wish to create. Some things cannot be done because they go against the nature of God. To give a human example, if I wished to do so, I could physically manage to kill my children in their sleep, but there is something about who I am that renders this action absolutely impossible for me to perform, because I could never wish to do it.
Likewise, God's own character and nature would seem to place limits upon what He can even wish to do. "God cannot be tempted with evil" (James 1:13), "God...cannot lie" (Titus 1:2); "He cannot deny [or, possibly, "contradict"] Himself" (2 Tim.2:13). God cannot do certain things because it is contrary to His nature even to wish to do them.
This may be true also of what we call "laws" of mathematics and physics. Are these actually arbitrary "laws" that could have been "enacted" differently by Providence? I don't know. I believe that what we call "laws" of this type are merely a manner of quantifying what reality is and predicting how reality behaves.
The reality that God created might possibly have been limited to things that can actually be real. We do not know for sure whether there is something in the nature of God that limited the range of realities that He might have created to those which have three physical dimensions, three primary colors, and eight notes in an octave; where darkness must always be the opposite if light, where a circle can never be the same thing as a square, and where two-plus-two can only ever equal four.
While I am not an Open Theist, I agree with Paidion that a contradiction, by definition, cannot exist.
As soon as circumstances are modified in such a way as to allow two contradictory propositions to both be true, they, as a result of that modification, cease to be a contradiction. Two-plus-two, by definition, can never equal five. However, if God has "two" and adds another "two," but He wants "five," He can easily add another "one." But this does not cause two-plus-two to equal five. Rather, it conforms to the reality of another unchangable "law"—namely, that two-plus-three equals five.
Thus, if it is true that a foreknown act, by definition, cannot be a free act, then Paidon's proposition would seem to be avoidable. The difficulty for me, in this present discussion, is knowing whether there are factors—or "laws"—of God's nature, which are unknown to me, and which would remove the apparent contradiction, if we were to know them.
I do not think that a discussion on this topic must necessarily generate much heat. I think that the question is not one of whether we are willing to affirm that God is omniscient, for even Open Theists affirm this. It is more a philosophical question of what "omniscience" means. This is more a philosophical question than a theological one, it seems to me. Christians should be able to philosophize one way or another on such things without it offending other Christians.
"First God created the universe and if He choose to change how mathmatics works within His creation He could make 2 + 2 = 5 IMHO. The univeres, the laws of mathmatics, physics, etc are all Gods creation isn't it? "
The fact that God created as He wished things to be doesn't necessarily mean that there were no limitations upon what He could wish to create. Some things cannot be done because they go against the nature of God. To give a human example, if I wished to do so, I could physically manage to kill my children in their sleep, but there is something about who I am that renders this action absolutely impossible for me to perform, because I could never wish to do it.
Likewise, God's own character and nature would seem to place limits upon what He can even wish to do. "God cannot be tempted with evil" (James 1:13), "God...cannot lie" (Titus 1:2); "He cannot deny [or, possibly, "contradict"] Himself" (2 Tim.2:13). God cannot do certain things because it is contrary to His nature even to wish to do them.
This may be true also of what we call "laws" of mathematics and physics. Are these actually arbitrary "laws" that could have been "enacted" differently by Providence? I don't know. I believe that what we call "laws" of this type are merely a manner of quantifying what reality is and predicting how reality behaves.
The reality that God created might possibly have been limited to things that can actually be real. We do not know for sure whether there is something in the nature of God that limited the range of realities that He might have created to those which have three physical dimensions, three primary colors, and eight notes in an octave; where darkness must always be the opposite if light, where a circle can never be the same thing as a square, and where two-plus-two can only ever equal four.
While I am not an Open Theist, I agree with Paidion that a contradiction, by definition, cannot exist.
As soon as circumstances are modified in such a way as to allow two contradictory propositions to both be true, they, as a result of that modification, cease to be a contradiction. Two-plus-two, by definition, can never equal five. However, if God has "two" and adds another "two," but He wants "five," He can easily add another "one." But this does not cause two-plus-two to equal five. Rather, it conforms to the reality of another unchangable "law"—namely, that two-plus-three equals five.
Thus, if it is true that a foreknown act, by definition, cannot be a free act, then Paidon's proposition would seem to be avoidable. The difficulty for me, in this present discussion, is knowing whether there are factors—or "laws"—of God's nature, which are unknown to me, and which would remove the apparent contradiction, if we were to know them.
I do not think that a discussion on this topic must necessarily generate much heat. I think that the question is not one of whether we are willing to affirm that God is omniscient, for even Open Theists affirm this. It is more a philosophical question of what "omniscience" means. This is more a philosophical question than a theological one, it seems to me. Christians should be able to philosophize one way or another on such things without it offending other Christians.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
-
_STEVE7150
- Posts: 894
- Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:38 pm
I do not think that a discussion on this topic must necessarily generate much heat. I think that the question is not one of whether we are willing to affirm that God is omniscient, for even Open Theists affirm this. It is more a philosophical question of what "omniscience" means. This is more a philosophical question than a theological one, it seems to me. Christians should be able to philosophize one way or another on such things without it offending other Christians.
When Jesus came as a man he emptied (kenosis) Phil 2.6 himself of his divinity which seems to indicate that divinity is something that can be adjusted as need be. So if Jesus emptied himself is it not possible that God can veil himself of some details of foreknowledge if He chooses. The problem is that we have some verses that say God regretted creating man and other verses that indicate He did'nt know certain things yet we have other verses stating he knows every hair on our head or Jesus knowing about Peter's denial. Therefore it seems at different times it appears his omniscience is at differing levels so why could'nt God himself chose to adjust these levels for reasons we could only speculate.
When Jesus came as a man he emptied (kenosis) Phil 2.6 himself of his divinity which seems to indicate that divinity is something that can be adjusted as need be. So if Jesus emptied himself is it not possible that God can veil himself of some details of foreknowledge if He chooses. The problem is that we have some verses that say God regretted creating man and other verses that indicate He did'nt know certain things yet we have other verses stating he knows every hair on our head or Jesus knowing about Peter's denial. Therefore it seems at different times it appears his omniscience is at differing levels so why could'nt God himself chose to adjust these levels for reasons we could only speculate.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
After carfully reading the the post on this thread it bothers me a little. God is God and we being once fifthy rags are trying to limit God in His being. His ways are not our ways and He is all knowing, all powerful and forever present. In my minute thinking, I can not and will not ever say that God is not able. He is able to do all things. All things!
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Servant of the Lord
-
_brody_in_ga
- Posts: 237
- Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:55 pm
- Location: Richland Ga
I agree with you.Frank wrote:After carfully reading the the post on this thread it bothers me a little. God is God and we being once fifthy rags are trying to limit God in His being. His ways are not our ways and He is all knowing, all powerful and forever present. In my minute thinking, I can not and will not ever say that God is not able. He is able to do all things. All things!
My biblical thesis will soon follow as time permits.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
For our God is a consuming fire.
Hebrews 12:29
Hebrews 12:29
Frank
I agree with you also, He can do all things adding it will be done "if" it is in His will.He doesn't go against himself as far as I can fathom.(sp)
I used to struggle with why we pray for many times in my life when I received answers to prayer that on the surface or in my minute knowledge didn't make sense to me.
Then I feel like I understood the prayers had to follow His will and nature of His creation. And that was way beyond my scope to know or understand. I'm certainly not God. Glow
I agree with you also, He can do all things adding it will be done "if" it is in His will.He doesn't go against himself as far as I can fathom.(sp)
I used to struggle with why we pray for many times in my life when I received answers to prayer that on the surface or in my minute knowledge didn't make sense to me.
Then I feel like I understood the prayers had to follow His will and nature of His creation. And that was way beyond my scope to know or understand. I'm certainly not God. Glow
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason: