Why exactly did Jesus have to die?

[Guest]

well said derek. i agree with you.

TK

[Guest]

Does repentance bring forgiveness from God? Consider the following from Ezekiel.

Ez 18:21-23
21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

According to this passage, God will no longer remember the sins of a man who repents. Is this still true today? What I mean is this: Can someone, who may have never heard of Jesus, find forgiveness from God through repentance? If it were true in Old Testament times why not today also?

Could it be that God allowed Jesus to die as a motivator to bring people to repentance? Consider the following passage....

Matt 12:38-41
38 Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you." 39 He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here.

The men of Nineveh had a sign and they repented finding forgiveness (God did not destroy them). Jesus seems to say that His death, burial and resurrection serve as a sign to bring people to repentance [which brings forgiveness].

And when John the Baptist called Jesus "the Lamb of God" (attonement language), he continued by saying, "who takes away the sins of the world." Could it be that the "taking away" of sins was pointing at repentance and the resulting forgiveness that comes from repentance? I think so.

So it's not that I am trying to deny that attonement language exists, it's just that I am trying to understand it in a way that fits my paradigm of God's character - not a God who requires human sacrifice in order to appease himself, but as One who loved the world so much that he allowed his son to die in order to bring (or motivate) people unto repentance.

Rom 2:4
Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

Todd

[Guest]

Todd wrote:

not a God who requires human sacrifice in order to appease himself,

Jesus wasnt a "human sacrifice;" he was murdered by evil men (even though he died willingly). human sacrifices, like those performed by aztecs as an act of worship(?) is something quite different.

if abraham had succeded in killing isaac, that would have been a human sacrifice.

TK

[Guest]

Jesus wasnt a "human sacrifice;" he was murdered by evil men (even though he died willingly).

I agree. This is what I am saying too. The question remains though, did God allow him to die to fulfill some need that God had?..or to fulfill a need that man had? The way most people explain the attonement is that Christ's death was necessary to appease God's anger, or that his death was a punishment inflicted upon Jesus to fulfill God's need for justice. I don't see it that way as I have explained in my post. Justice is not served in the murder of an innocent man. BUT, the murder of an innocent man does serve to show that human injustice and sin lead to death.

Godly justice, as I see it, is the establishing of what is right (righteousness), not the punishing of what is wrong. God is just because He is righteous.

Todd

[Guest]

Here are a couple of verses to ponder in light of this discussion.

Mark 2:17
When Jesus heard it, He said to them, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."

Who are the "righteous" in this verse?

Luke 15:7
I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

Who are the "just persons" in this verse? Is it those who do what is good and right? Jesus seems to imply that these people exist.

Does Paul teach otherwise?

Rom 3:10-12
10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one."

Is this true that none seek after God?...that none do what is good? Do Jesus words and Pauls words oppose each other? It seems so (out of their context), but I think Paul is saying that both Jews and Greeks are all subject to sin - Jews have no special immunity - everyone is subject to it. Individually, we can repent and be found just before God.

So, trying to stay on-topic, Christ's death was meant to lead us to repentance, and in doing so, find justification.

Todd

[Guest]

Clearly, the central issue here is to correctly interpret the plentiful "Jesus died for our sins" language in the NT.

Ive been thinking about this a lot today. It seems to me God only requires a change in the disposition of a man toward him (repentance) in order to forgive him and grant him mercy. Another scripture which states this is 2 Chronicles 7:14:

"13 If I should restrain the heaven and there should be no rain, and if I should command the locust to devour the trees, and if I should send pestilence upon my people; 14 then if my people, on whom my name is called, should repent, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their evil ways, I also will hear from heaven, and I will be merciful to their sins, and I will heal their land."

I was struck by the parable of the unforgiving servant in Matthew 18. If it be true that God cannot or will not forgive sin just in repsonse to repetnance, then the parable is upside down. It is actually the master who erred because he did not insist on having his debt serviced while the wicked servant was actually godly because he did insist on getting paid!

What we need is clear teaching from the scriptures that God is unable (or unwilling) to forgive sins purely in repsonse to repentance.

[_Derek]

So it's not that I am trying to deny that attonement language exists, it's just that I am trying to understand it in a way that fits my paradigm of God's character - not a God who requires human sacrifice in order to appease himself...

To say that Christians think that God requires a "human sacrifice" in my opinion, betrays a rather shallow understanding of what I, (and others who believe that Christ died at least in one sense, as a propitiatory sacrifice), have been trying to put across. It is amazing to me that you could even say that, after all of these pages of debating this issue.

If that's what you think we are saying, it's comes as no suprise that you reject the sacrifical aspect of Chirst's death!

I am trying to understand it in a way that fits my paradigm of God's character...

Why not let the scriptures speak for themselves, instead of trying to interpret them all by a preconcieved "paradigm"?

[Guest]

Isa 53:4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.

Why was He pierced, crushed, and chastened according to this passage?

For our transgressions, for our iniquities, and for our well-being.

This could be easily understood to mean that Christ's death was intended to lead us to repentance so that we could put away our sinful ways (our transgressions and iniquities); thereby, improving our well-being.

Isa 53:6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.

Why? because we have gone astray, we have turned to our own way. But God has done something to remedy our disobediance. He has caused the iniquities of us all to fall on Christ!

Since sin is in the world, we are all subject to it. Just as Paul was saying in Romans Chapter 3, none have a special immunity to sin. Therefore, each of us needs to repent. Our iniquities have fallen on Christ (i.e., He was murdered by sinners) and we can see the horror of it - sensitizing us to sin, and leading us to repentance.

Isa 53:10 But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

Who's guilt was Christ an "offering" for according to this context? It surely wan't His own, because He was "without sin". Why even express the need for a "guilt offering" if one is not needed?

It was for the guilt of those who sin (those who need repentance).

Isa 53:11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities

.

What caused God to be "satisfied" here? The passage says that God's satisfation came "as a result of the anguish of His soul".

God finds satisfaction over sinners who repent (Ez 18:23, Luke 15:7). Christ's death motivates us to do so because we "see" the anguish of His soul and are convicted.

Todd

[_Derek]

Hi Todd,

I guess you were responding to that post while I deleted it. Sorry. Well, we might as well talk about it now. I wish I hadn't deleted it. If you have it copied and pasted somewhere, maybe you could paste it back in or something.

Derek wrote:
Isa 53:4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.

Why was He pierced, crushed, and chastened according to this passage?

For our transgressions, for our iniquities, and for our well-being

.


This could be easily understood to mean that Christ's death was intended to lead us to repentance so that we could put away our sinful ways (our transgressions and iniquities); thereby, improving our well-being.

But the texts says that these things happened for (i.e. on account of) our trangressions. Your interpretation does not take this into account. There is nothing about "leading us" anywhere, but rather the statement of an action (pierced, crushed, etc.), and a cause (our transgressions).

Derek wrote:
Isa 53:6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.

Why? because we have gone astray, we have turned to our own way. But God has done something to remedy our disobediance. He has caused the iniquities of us all to fall on Christ!

Since sin is in the world, we are all subject to it. Just as Paul was saying in Romans Chapter 3, none have a special immunity to sin. Therefore, each of us needs to repent. Our iniquities have fallen on Christ (i.e., He was murdered by sinners) and we can see the horror of it - sensitizing us to sin, and leading us to repentance.

You are not taking into account that it says "the Lord" layed our iniquities upon Him. Again there is the statement of the cause (gone astray, etc.) and an action as a result (laying on of iniquities by God).

Derek wrote:
Quote:

Isa 53:10 But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.


Who's guilt was Christ an "offering" for according to this context? It surely wan't His own, because He was "without sin". Why even express the need for a "guilt offering" if one is not needed?

It was for the guilt of those who sin (those who need repentance).

In this context, I think that it can only be said to be an offering to atone for (on acount of) the iniquities that are mentioned over and over in this passage.

Derek wrote:
Quote:
Isa 53:11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities
.

What caused God to be "satisfied" here? The passage says that God's satisfation came "as a result of the anguish of His soul".

God finds satisfaction over sinners who repent (Ez 18:23, Luke 15:7). Christ's death motivates us to do so because we "see" the anguish of His soul and are convicted.

Indeed, those things do bring God satisfaction, but that's not what the passage says! I said "here" or in this passage, which clearly states, "as a result of the anguish of His soul". The only "His" in view here is the One who was said to be crushed, put to greif, and who rendered Himself a guilt offering. Namely Jesus. The one "seeing" His anguish in this context is not us, but "the Lord". You are ignoring the context.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

God bless brother,

[Guest]

This is from "The Bible in Pictures for Little Eyes" by kenneth taylor- p. 169. i still have mine (a little tattered) that my mom used to read to me when i was too young to read. but i still remember the pictures and the stories:

The bad men have taken Jesus up the hill and have nailed his hands and his feet on these big pieces of wood so that he will die after a while. Can you think what it would be like if you were hanging there with nails through your hands? Oh, what a terrible thing they are doing to Jesus! Do you know why Jesus was nailed there? It is because he loves you and me. You and I have done bad things and God should punish us. But God doesnt want to do that because He loves us. God sent his dear son Jesus who wanted to be punished for us. In this picture, you can see Jesus being punished for your sins by dying there on the cross. That is how much Jesus loves you. He died for you.

That's the way I learned it; it still make sense, it is still beautiful. No, Jesus didnt die so that we would feel sorry for him and therefore repent. He died because we are sinners -- his death makes our repentance acceptable to God. There is a popular worship song by Chris Tomlin that says "It's your kindness Lord, that leads us to repentance." What kindness? the kindness that it took to die for me, while I was yet a sinner.

TK