Why did the serpent tempt Eve instead of Adam?

Post by **_TK** » Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:45 pm

Aw come on guys--

look at what The Message says:

Adam was made first, then Eve; woman was deceived first—our pioneer in sin!—with Adam right on her heels.

i knew if i looked hard enough i could find something to support my view.

but seriously folks, i do think that it is implied that eve was deceived first and dragged adam into the deception.

i guess no one here considers sinning to be a result of being deceived. sure, we willfully sin sometimes, but only because we are deceived about one thing or another. why did David sin with bathsheba? because was deceived into believing momentary pleasure was worth disobeying God. why did aaron make the golden calf? because he was deceived into thinking that moses might just not be coming back, and that giving into the people's demands was better than than the consequences of not doing so.

by stating this, i do not mean that we are not culpable for our sins because "the devil made me do it." quite the contrary- we do have the ability to resist and are commanded to do so. but when we do not, we are giving into deception; in our pride we are deceived into thinking that we know better than God.

TK

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:57 pm

in our pride we are deceived into thinking that we know better than God.

Eve had all the sins of the world within her before she disobeyed God. She had lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and the pride of life. The fruit looked desirous, was good for food and would make her wise.
She is certainly accountable to God but she was not made perfect and did not have free will , she had a will subject to a sinful nature before she was deceived.
Since she came out of Adam , he must have had the same nature.

Post by **_Paidion** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 5:13 pm

She is certainly accountable to God but she was not made perfect and did not have free will , she had a will subject to a sinful nature before she was deceived.

I just can't let this statement pass, Steve 7150.

For now I will just make the following affirmation:

Being subject to a sinful nature does not imply being devoid of a free will.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 9:11 am

Being subject to a sinful nature does not imply being devoid of a free will.

Paidion, The reason i'm interested in this distinction re whether Eve had a perfect nature as most believe or whether she had a nature that already had good and evil in it, is that if she had the latter from the beginning then God for the sake of his own law of justice will allow man an opportunity to receive Christ free from Satan's interference and free from the evil in man's own nature.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 9:28 am

I just can't let this statement pass, Steve 7150.

OK Paidion but according to dictionary.com here are some definitions of "free."
exempt from external authority.
not under foreign rule
unrestricted
clear of obstructions or obstacles
exempt from restrain
unimpeded

Both Jesus and Paul called Satan the ruler of this world. Satan (by design) interferred with Eve.
Eve's impuses apparently were very strong therefore interferring and impeding her "free" will IMO.

Post by **_Paidion** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 11:01 am

This is the way that I see it:

Adam and Eve were created in the image of God.

"God is not a man" and so it was not their physical form that was created in the image of God. It must have been their mental characteristics ---- and that included one of the chief characteristics of God ----- His free will.
God has always respected the free will of man, and never forces His own will upon man. So Jesus taught His disciples to pray, "Let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven." Obviously, the Father's will was (and is) not generally being done on earth, or this prayer would be meaningless.

So Adam and Eve were created with free wills. Their bodies were adult, but they were immature mentally. They had to learn and grow.
Their free wills meet the criteria of the dictionary you consulted:

exempt from external authority.
not under foreign rule
unrestricted
clear of obstructions or obstacles
exempt from restraint
unimpeded

Before Eve's disobedience, they were not slaves of Satan.
The devil didn't make Eve eat from the tree. He tempted her to eat. But tempting her is not forcing her will. She could have said, "No" to the temptation even as Jesus did when He was tempted by Satan. After she succumbed to tempation, and Adam disobeyed, too, there was a dramatic change in them and in the whole creation. THE FALL! Thus mankind did become slaves of their self-natures. However, slaves to not lose their free wills. They can always refuse to obey their master.

Slaves of sin, out of their own free will, can always disobey sin, and do right. But usually they don't do so. That is why the sacrifice of Christ was necessary ---- to deliver man from the tyranny of sin. "Whom the Son has set free is truly free."

The sin nature, as well as Satan, are powerful influences upon man.
But they are not causes of man's decisions. That is why man, justly, can be held accountable for his actions. Thus God is wholly just in rewarding the righteous and correcting the unrighteous.

If God's grace alone were responsible for our righteous actions, then our being rewarded for those actions does not make sense. For we couldn't have done otherwise. No, it is God's enabling grace together with our freely chosen decisions that make righteousness possible.

If our fallen natures and/or the devil alone were responsible for our evil actions, why should we be punished? We couldn't have done otherwise. No, it is our fallen natures and/or the devil together with our freely chosen decisions that make us culpable.

In general, the scriptures are plain. We have the power to choose good, and the power to choose evil. We will all be judged "according to our works" (Romans 2)

Post by **_PAULESPINO** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:01 am

I just I want to add that it is possible that Satan tried to deceive Adam but was not successful therefore he tried his luck with Eve.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:11 pm

The sin nature, as well as Satan, are powerful influences upon man.
But they are not causes of man's decisions. That is why man, justly, can be held accountable for his actions. Thus God is wholly just in rewarding the righteous and correcting the unrighteous.

I think these are partial causes as is our will but if our will were truly free then there is no reason for redemption in the Lake of Fire since we already had a fair chance at salvation through our supposed free will. I agree we are accountable because we do know better but accountability is different then ultimate responsibility. That's why if God ultimately does save everyone it's because we will be accountable and judged but God takes ultimate responsibility for humanity's salvation.

Why would Jesus say this if we have free will? " So IF the Son makes you free , you will be free indeed." John 8.36
I think we have apparent free will and Jesus here alludes to this.

Post by **_Paidion** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:49 pm

So would you say, Steve7150, that if a human father guides his child, or sometimes restricts him, or spanks him to correct him, that he has thereby caused the will of the child to be less free?

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 8:49 pm

So would you say, Steve7150, that if a human father guides his child, or sometimes restricts him, or spanks him to correct him, that he has thereby caused the will of the child to be less free

Yes i think so depending on the degree of restriction of course. I think when we step back and take an impartial appaisel of human nature it can be startling at the evil that humans are capable of. And it's not just the monsters of humanity that immediately come to mind but the average guy can so easily rationalize evil and justify it. The impulses in our nature drive and compel people to do things they know are wrong.
Accepting Jesus as Lord is not a free will decision , but rather it is in some ways amazing that we can completely go against our nature and humble ourselves and acknowledge our sin and understand our true relationship with God.
Left on our own almost all of us would fall away except that the Holy Spirit does enable us.
Even with this it is estimated by Ray Comfort the founder of "Way of the Master" that 85% of new believers will fall away. How could this happen if all it takes to follow Jesus is a free will decision?
The answer is that it takes a lot more, it takes us overcoming ourselves with God's help.