Thoughts On The Eternity Of Hell

[Guest]

I guess I'm not a traditionalist; I do not hold the view expressed in your statement. I thought that would be understood from my last post.

I also agree with you Revelation is not chronlogical. I thought in past posts on this subject you maintained it was.

When asked for scriptures that positively support universalism, all that is presented are scriptures that "suggest" the doctrine, which is built on unnecessary inferences.


Homer, I was responding to Ben and just restating the traditional Christian view. I believe you have said that if someone never heard the gospel you'll leave it up to God.
Actually i understand that most folks here take Rev as non chronological until we get to chap 20. I'm an historicist for the record and i think it is all chronological.
And re universalism , do you want me to list all the verses where the word "all" is used. I actually don't have an axe to grind as to whether or not it's true , i just believe that God being a just God will give everyone the same opportunity that a child born into a bible believing Christian family has.

[Guest]

On the fate of those who have never heard the Gospel I am silent; they are in God's hands and He is righteous and just.

Homer,

Then you are "silent" on at least 95% [just a guess] of mankind. Did Christ come only to effect 5% of mankind? According to your belief system the rules only apply to a very small minority. Doesn't that throw up a red flag somewhere? Can't you at least consider that maybe your view may not be correct? Is the Bible silent on what happens to 95% of people who never hear the Gospel? Doesn't that seem strange to think of it that way?

Todd

[Guest]

When asked for scriptures that positively support universalism, all that is presented are scriptures that "suggest" the doctrine, which is built on unnecessary inferences.

Eph 1:9-10
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him.

Homer,

I suppose that in your mind this scripture only "suggests" the doctine of Universal Salvation. But, it seems to me to be clear that it is God's will that all will be gathered together in Christ at some point. But I suppose maybe you think that God's will may not be done regarding this?...or that "all" doesn't really mean everyone?

Todd

[Guest]

Luke 2:9-11
9 An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. 10 But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. 11 Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord.

Is it "good news" for "all the people" or is bad news for the unjust? According to the traditional view and the Calvanist view the Gospel is bad news for most people....an eternity of punishment. But - according to the angel in this verse - the Gospel is good news for all people.

Todd

[Guest]

well, it's great news for the people that believe it.

somehow, Todd, i think you knew that somebody was going to say that.

further, it seems the angel was stating that the good news was for all (including non-jewish) people. in other words, the Jews wouldnt have a "monopoly" any longer, as they tended to believe. one gospel for all mankind. that IS great news!

you really cant build a case for universalism on a verse like this.

TK

[Guest]

one more thing-- the "gospel" itself isnt the bad news. it is only bad news to those who reject it.

TK

[Guest]

You would go to hell not ‘just’ because you didn’t hear the gospel. You would go to hell because you broke God’s law, and you would go to hell because you were not righteous. The upright in heaven are not righteous by their own doing.

So, in what way are the upright righteous? Is it because they are “covered” by the blood of Christ? Is it because they have donned the “cloak of righteousness”, so that when God looks at them He no longer sees their sin, but Christ’s righteousness? What saith the Scripture?

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does right is righteous, as He is righteous. I John 3:7

Is He righteous because of His own doing? (or rather, does His own doing reveal that He is righteous?) Or is He merely positionally righteous? Just as His righteous living revealed that He was righteous, so it is with us --- for “He who does right is righteous, as He is righteous.”

There is no one that is just, and no one that will be admitted into heaven based on their own merit.

True, it is not merit, or self-effort that qualifies us. But it is an actual righteousness manifests itself through righteous deeds. Self effort is of no avail. But deliverance from sinning is possible through the enabling grace made available to us through the death of Christ. Every scripture in the New Testament that tells us why Christ died, gives this as the reason. Here are a couple of examples:

2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

The righteousness as that of Romans 3 does not speak about a behavioral pattern, but that no one has ever been innately righteous, with the exception of Jesus of course. We need righteousness to get in heaven, which can only be gained through Christ.

When Paul wrote Romans 3, did he forget so soon the importance of the “behaviour pattern” of which he wrote in chapter 2? Let’s examine what he wrote in chapter 2. Can a person read and accept the words of this passage and still believe going to heaven has no relation to what we do?

Romans 2:6-10

For He will render to everyone according to his works.

To those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, He will give eternal life, but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth,
but are persuaded by unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil, but glory and honour and well-being for
every one who does good... for God shows no partiality.

Jesus made it clear that people who do not accept Him go to hell, and he offered no other exceptions.

Please quote the passage where he made that clear.

To say people will get in another way is to speculate,
Jesus only gave us two ways! Accept Him or reject Him. We cannot go around and tell people, “oh well, you might go to hell, but you’ll probably get out after your time has been paid.”

I know of no one who does that, or who makes that claim that one gets out after having served his time! The claim is that the Lord, who is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, uses Gehenna (or “hell” if you prefer) to correct sinners. He may use other means as well, such as sending the redeemed there with the permanent gospel message. They will have to repent (have a change of mind) and submit to Christ, just as everyone else must do, who wish to have a relationship with Him.

Even here and now, God uses a variety of means to induce people to submit to Christ's authority. "Accepting Him" is not good enough. We read that

... as many as received him, to them He gave the authority to become the children of God... John 1:12

It does not say that as many as received Him, became children of God, but received the authority to become the children of God.

People must not only receive Jesus and His words, but also "forsake all and follow" Him, in order to become His disciple, and a child of God.

You say you believe in predestination. If everyone has been chosen in advance to go to heaven or hell, then why bother trying to convince anyone of your “plan of salvation”? Why preach the gospel at all? If “The Lord is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance”, 2 Peter 3:9, why would He choose over 99.9% of people to spend an eternity in hell? That sounds as if God is not powerful enough to carry out His will, but that Satan is the big winner.

If I continually witness to people and am persistent about an eternal hell, does that mean I hate the unsaved? If I hated unsaved people, I would not give the energy to witness to them. If I believe something is taught in scripture I will preach it regardless of whether I like it or not.

Why bother? If they’re predestined to an eternity in hell, your preaching or witness will have no effect whatever upon that destiny.

[Guest]

When asked for scriptures that positively support universalism, all that is presented are scriptures that "suggest" the doctrine, which is built on unnecessary inferences.

Eph 1:9-10
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him.

How are you able to distinguish if the verse is stating that all things will be gathered in Christ or that all things in Christ will be gathered? Are you able to prove your insinuation grammatically or by using the context in which those verses are found?

I do not believe the context supports the claim that all people (unsaved) will be gathered in Christ. Verses 7-9 tell us whom Paul is speaking about - believers which are “In Him” and were instituted in Christ by “wisdom and insight He made known to us”.

As my commentator states, the Greek word for wisdom, Sophia, emphasizes understanding of ultimate things – such as life and death, God and man, righteousness and sin, heaven and hell, eternity and time. Why did God reveal this wisdom to us and why was the mystery revealed to us? Verses 9-10 tell us. God revealed the mystery to us “according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him”.

What was this kind intention purposed in Him? The intention was for an “administration suitable to the fullness of times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ”. Verses 9-10 are explaining why God revealed to us the mystery of the gospel. I do not believe the context supports your view of the text in that all things outside of Christ, which are not “In Him” will be gathered. The verses are directed toward explaining God’s purpose in revealing the truth to people who are now in Him.

It would make no sense if Paul were stating something like, “God revealed this truth to you so that all people unsaved and saved could be gathered together in Christ.” That makes no sense, but isn’t that what your promoting? Rather, Paul is stating that God revealed to us this mystery so that we could partake in that administration suitable to the fullness of times. That administration suitable to the fullness of times is when all the saints will finally be gathered together and sin will end.

Chapter 1 and even 2 in Eph is speaking about and to believers and their riches in Christ. It is not speaking about unsaved people.

Furthermore, is hell considered a heavenly sphere? It states people in the heavens and on earth will be gathered. But in any case, I think it is clear that Paul is speaking about those “In Him” and “in Christ”.

Paul states in Eph 2:12 that the gentiles prior to being brought near by Christ were “strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.”

[Guest]

It would make no sense if Paul were stating something like, “God revealed this truth to you so that all people unsaved and saved could be gathered together in Christ.” That makes no sense, but isn’t that what your promoting?

No, what I am saying is that all people will eventually be saved and gathered together in Him. The timing of this event is described as "the dispensation of the fullness of times." When this happens, all things will be "in Christ." The scripture states that this is God's will.

1 Tim 2:3-4
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1 Tim 4:10
For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

John 4:42
Then they said to the woman, "Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world."

1 John 4:10
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

Todd

[Guest]

But how do those verses in Eph bolster that concept? The context doesn't seem to support that. I'm not trying to be rude or insult, but it seems you're just pulling out "all things gathered in Christ" away from its context. How do you prove that the text is also referring to unsaved people?