What is the preterist view of the Torah? (Law)

[Guest]

Hi Brothers!
When the term "the Law" is used by the NT writers without any further distinguishing properties or restrictive definitions such as "the royal law" or "the law of Christ" or "the law of Liberty", etc., invariably the whole law of Moses is meant. The inspired writers knew of no division into moral law, ceremonial law, judicial law, etc.

Many passages in scripture affirm that "the Law", all of it, has been done away in Christ. See 2 Cor. 3:1-17, Eph. 2:14-15, Col. 2:14, Heb. 7:18, 8:13. Note in Romans 14 the man worried about unclean food is described by the apostle as the brother weak in faith! Are we more able expositors than the Apostles?

It seems something rather simple is being made into something very complicated and difficult. As David Bercot has commented, the earliest Christians believed Cristianity was a simple religion, and what was essential easily understood.

I am astonished that anyone would claim that the apostolic church or the earliest Chritians did not observe communion weekly. In Acts 2:42 we find it was a routine practice. In Acts 20:7 Paul says they met on Sunday to "break bread". The term "break bread" has been well established as a term for observing communion.

Yours in Christ, Homer

[Guest]

The use of the Word Law is a weak translation to mean Torah. Torah came from the word Yarah which means to teach by pointing or demonstrating.

So what is the Torah teaching? All about Yahweh. Yahshua is the living Torah. The New Covenant does not do away with the Torah but on the contrary makes it ALIVE when Yahweh writes it in our hearts.

The Law or Torah is NOT that of Moses but has always been Yahweh's.
the Torah, now alive is NOT static as those written on stones and paper.

In Galatians the Written Torah as our schoolmaster is pointing us to the living Torah, Yahshua who by His life teaches us the Halakah or the Way!

Brother Homer, re-reading Acts 2:42 did not indicate that this was an every Sunday occurence. They were simply breaking bread or fellowshipping and this could be done EVERY DAY. And it was from house to house.

For the Christian , they are apt to believe an every Sunday meeting to justify their position. Any way, what Paul celebrated with the Corinthians was the Passover Feast and not communion as indicated by the cups they were drinking and the bread which was the exact replica of Yahshua's
Passover Seder with His disciples the night before He was crucified as the Passover Lamb. And it was not a Sunday when they did this as it was before Sabbath or Saturday.

Even in Acts 20:7, Although this particular meeting was a Sunday, nothing indicated it was done EVERY Sunday.

Actually. thanks to this scripture establishing Sunday as the 1st Day of the week because it is a definite PROOF that Saturday is the 7th Day of the Week the very Sabbath that Yahweh Commanded in the 10 Commandements that His True People celebrate weekly!

Isaiah 56

1. Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
2. Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
3. Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4. For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5. Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
6. Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
7. Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

The keeping of Sabbath as well as not doing evil is one of the reasons why the Gentiles become part of Israel of Yahweh.
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Brother Damon,

I looked at the Greek for Great and Least:

Great:
Strong's Ref. # 3173
Romanized megas
Pronounced meg'-as
[including the prolonged forms, feminine megale, plural megaloi, etc.; compare also GSN3176, GSN3187]; big (literally or figuratively, in a very wide application)

Least:
Strong's Ref. # 1646
Romanized elachistos
Pronounced el-akh'-is-tos
superlative of elachus (short); used as equivalent to GSN3398; least (in size, amount, dignity, etc.):

I fail to see Newest and old in the word meanings.

I do see that Yahshua warn not to do the Torah like the Pharisees who pervert the Law or Torah of Yahweh by making human laws placed in the level of Yahweh's Torah.

Mat 5:20. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

The Law was not demolished, on the contrary it is being written in our hearts, the whole thing in Spirit for the flesh profits nothing.

Matthew 19:16. And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17. And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Keep the Commandments? Is Jesus crazy? Why did He not say keep MY Commandments? The Commandments was the old Testament. Keeping the Law will bring eternal life? Did not Paul contradict this very statement?

But that is only half of the answer by Jesus. Aside from keeping Torah, we need to give up all and FOLLOW Yahshua. Law alone will not bring eternal
life. This is when we are perfected. Keeping Law is still very important in becoming a true Jew or Son of Yahweh.

...20. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21. Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Yahshua also said if you do not believe what was written through Moses, the Law, how can you believe Him for the Word or Torah was of and about Yahshua:
John 5:
38. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41. I receive not honour from men.
42. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45. Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47. But if ye believe NOT his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

So have we lost belief in the Law Moses wrote? Is the Law contrary to Messiah? Is to keep the Commandments means having no faith in Yahshua?

[Guest]

Brother Derech,

I noticed you completely ignored all the scriptures I listed which indicate the Mosaic code has been done away. If they do not mean this, what do they mean? Please explain them for us.

The law of Moses was given to Israel and Israel only. See Exodus 20:1-2 and 32:28. Of all the sins the gentiles are charged with, I believe you will not be able to find them accused of failing to keep the sabbath.

Elsewhere in this forum I have a post regarding the nature of the Ekklesia. Something I was intending to mention is my belief that during the old covenant with Israel, gentiles could still be saved apart from any keeping of the law of Moses or any knowledge of it, the same as they could before it was given. All mankind has always been, and will forever be, under two immutable laws, to love God and love our neighbor. From Adam to Jesus, the gentiles were subject to these laws. I'm sure you are aware of what Jesus said regarding the relation the law of Moses to these commands.

Yours in Christ, Homer

[Guest]

I am astonished that anyone would claim that the apostolic church or the earliest Chritians did not observe communion weekly. In Acts 2:42 we find it was a routine practice. In Acts 20:7 Paul says they met on Sunday to "break bread". The term "break bread" has been well established as a term for observing communion.

Hi Homer.

As I said, this is shocking to most Christians. By the way, the term "breaking bread" did not always mean communion, but could also refer to eating a meal. I have very conclusive evidence that "Passover", kept on "the fourteenth day of the moon" was kept by many if not most early Christians. I haven't shared this evidence before simply because it's so controversial that it's not worth the trouble it would take to explain it all. I'd much rather start with other, simpler issues so that people can see that my research isn't just coming out of left field before I bring anything as heavy as this up.

Damon
PS. The reason why the Law can be such a complicated issue is because evangelical Christians (such as yourself, I'm guessing) aren't the only audience to explain it to. There are many Messianic Jews as well as some legalistic Church of God groups which need the kind of detail that I go into in my posts.

[Guest]

The law of Moses was given to Israel and Israel only.

But as Christians, we're grafted onto Israel, Homer! That's the problem! That's why the issue of the Law is not as simple as you think.

Damon

[Guest]

Brother Damon,

I looked at the Greek for Great and Least:

[snipped citations]

I fail to see Newest and old in the word meanings.

*sighs* You can be such a nitpicker.

Go to this site and look up "great" and "least". I found the following for "great", "megas":

definition e. stature and age: great, old

I also found the following for "least", "elachistos":

"superlative of elachus (short); used as equivalent to Strongs #3398."

This is the definition of Strong's #3398 - "mikros":

definition c. of age: less by birth, younger

Not one of the commandments that Jesus had told the assembled crowd were part of the Mosaic Law. Therefore they were new laws that He was giving them as a Lawgiver on par with Moses. (After all, why do you think this incident took place on a mountain?) Thus, the correct interpretation of those two words must be "elder" versus "younger".

If we have to disagree on this, then we'll disagree. But that's the way I see it, and I have no reason to change my viewpoint.

The Law was not demolished, on the contrary it is being written in our hearts, the whole thing in Spirit for the flesh profits nothing.

Matthew 19:16. And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17. And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Keep the Commandments? Is Jesus crazy? Why did He not say keep MY Commandments? The Commandments was the old Testament. Keeping the Law will bring eternal life? Did not Paul contradict this very statement?

That's because you've never addressed the issue of the "expansive" law versus the "restricted" law. Jesus was citing the "expansive" law which was equivalent to the Royal Law. Like I said, we're not even on the same page.

Damon

[Guest]

The law of Moses was given to Israel and Israel only.

But as Christians, we're grafted onto Israel, Homer! That's the problem! That's why the issue of the Law is not as simple as you think.

Damon

Yes, but we are grafted in by faith. And those Jews who were broken off were broken off because they tried to establish their own righteousness, a righteousness that is from the law.

Jews and Gentiles are saved in the same way:
"Acts 15:10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they."

I suggest Derech re-read Romans 3 again. Derech, when you do re-read it and skip over everything Paul said except for verse 31 which you will try to hold up, think long and hard about what this verse means. Something should come to mind, like Romans 4 and "Love fulfills the law".

[Guest]

Hello Brothers,

A most interesting discussion!

Consider Galations 3:19 "What then was the purpose of the Law? It was added because of trangressions UNTIL the Seed to whom the promise referred had come." 3:25 "Now that faith has come, we are NO LONGER under the supervision of the Law".

Note that on the occasion of the giving of the Ten Commandments, named "the ministry of death" by Paul, 3000 of the people died. On the day of Pentecost when the Gospel was proclaimed, 3000 souls were saved!
Interesting contrast illustrative of the effects of the Law compared to the Spirit: 2 Cor. 3:6 "He has made us competent ministers of a new covenant - not of the letter (Law) but of the Spirit; for the letter KILLS, but the Spirit gives life".

Damon wrote "....as Christians, grafted into Israel". We must be careful not to press a Paul's metaphor too far. Paul was answering a question about Jews and Gentiles, not whether Israel and the Church are the same. Jesus described the Church as a grapevine in John 15 with Jesus as the vine and his disciples the branches. He did not say Israel is the vine!
The Church was built on an entirely new foundation, composed of spiritual people. Before the day of Pentecost, there never existed a body of people who met together on a purely spiritual basis - that of faith, hope, and love. The Ekklesia or Church has an essential element, often overlooked, that is it is an assembly. It is not some nebulous body of believers but a functional body with many parts (us).

For what its worth, this is my view until shown a beter one.

God bless, Homer

[Guest]

*sighs* I get it coming and going, don't I? On the one hand I'm not an evangelical so I don't look at things in terms of Law versus grace, Israel versus the Church. So I get flak from the evangelicals. On the other hand I'm not a "Torah observer" so I don't consider the Law, even minus the animal sacrifices, to be the strict code of obedience that it was in the Old Testament. So I get flak from the "Torah observers."

What can I say? I try to steer a middle road of balance between two extremes. On either side of me, I can see people who, even out of ignorance, end up throwing out the baby with the bathwater because they can only see one part of the picture.

Guys, the Law isn't as simple as you think. How many times do I have to say that before you'll actually listen to me and try to figure out why I'm saying that before you try to answer me?

Homer, I already addressed Galatians 3:19 in another post. I also already addressed the issue of why Christians are grafted onto Israel. I meant exactly what I said and I feel that Paul intended the metaphor to be understood in precisely this way. Do I have to repeat myself here before you'll read what I've written on the subject? And also, do I need to tell you, and not just Derech, to read what I've written about the "expansive" Law versus the "restrictive" Law?

Sean, I know we're grafted in by faith, but the reason why I mentioned being grafted onto Israel is because Derech is coming at things from the perspective of the continuity of the covenants of God. In other words, the New Covenant isn't anything more than a renewed covenant! Derech is right to see the covenants this way, but the issue of what to do with the Law still remains as a result.

Damon

[Guest]

Damon,

I've read your stuff but just do not get what your position on the law is. I begin to think I do and then find it slips away. Perhaps its just me, I'm a rather simple guy.

I do not know if I'm an evangelical or not, I'll leave that for others to decide; evangelicals themselves do not agree on exactly what it is. I prefer to simply be a Christian and let it go at that.

In reference to the law you said it does not apply to those who have become spiritually mature. Do you mean us today, the Jews before Christ, or both? Please explain.

Yours in Christ, Homer