Young earth vs. ancient earth- where do you stand?

[_Derek]

Derek, I think you're an amillenist which means you take the millenium to not be a literal thousand years yet when it comes to Moses writing Psalm 90 you believe it's irrelevant to Genesis.

Both passages allow for a non-literal interpretation. One (Ps. 90) being poetry, and the other (Rev) being apocalyptic literature. I simply look at all of the other times in scripture that 1000 is used figurativly (which in poetry is exclusively figurative). It's not the same thing as far as I can see. Genesis is not poetry, and should not be interpreted using poetry. To me that is a backwards hermeneutic.

How do we know that it has nothing to do with creation days?

Well, because the context of the passage has nothing to do with creation days. Creation isn't mentioned.

If you look up all the instances of use of the figure "1000" and see that it's almost always used figurativly. I would use that data to interpret the word in another figurative passage. I wouldn't go to II kings and place that meaning on, say a passage about "1000" Israelite soldiers. You can't go to 2 or 3 uses of a word like "day" and superimpose billions of years into it's use in a historical narrative. (Well, you can but not justifiably in my opinion).

I also would be interested to know if there are any scientists outside of YECs who believe the universe to be 6-11,000 years old.

I would be interested in how many of them think a man can rise from the dead, or turn water into wine as well.

If one takes a literal view of Genesis should'nt each day be 12 hours since evening to morning is literally 12 hours.

I'm not sure I follow you here. I think they are speaking of two 12 hours cycles, and I don't see the need to be that wooden in my interpretation. I see it as morning happened, then evening happened, (both which happen in a day) without any strict time frame applied to those terms.

I think Psalm 19 requires nature and the bible to agree and as far as i know outside of YECs no scientists believe the universe to be a few thousand years old.

First of all, I don't see why Psalm 19 "requires" anything. It is merely a statement that God's wonderful creation "declares" His glory.

But let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that your interpretation is correct. It sounds to me like you are saying that Psalm 19 requires that the bible agree with the interpretation of scientists about nature, not something obvious in nature its self. In my opinion, God's creation declared His glory before anyone ever thought of studying it scientifically.

In Proverbs 8.22 God describes his works as "old" "The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old." Does "works of old" mean a few thousand years?

I think that it is quite reasonable to say that a few thousand years is old. Especially to the person writing that Proverb. Do you disagree? At what age does something become "old" in your opinion?

God bless bro,

[Guest]

I'm not sure I follow you here. I think they are speaking of two 12 hours cycles, and I don't see the need to be that wooden in my interpretation. I see it as morning happened, then evening happened, (both which happen in a day) without any strict time frame applied to those terms.

The point i'm trying to make is that a "wooden" or actually "literal" interpretation of the phrase "So the evening and the morning WERE the fourth day" is not possible because mathematically it adds up to 12 hours. So even the so called literal intrepretation already is not quite so literal. And IMHO this phrase is not a minor point , i think there's a lot of meaning in these words.

[Guest]

steve7150

Your 12-hour day argument doesn't make much sense to me

Evening in morning doesn't describe the amount of time involved during the creative acts, it is simply the phrase that indicates the transition from one day to another. The fact that the transition phrase is 'evening and morning' indicates that the days were regular days.

I think the 'were' that you are building your argument from is a poor translation. Well, not so much a poor translation considering the word 'were' is just an addition to the text, but a faulty addition.

[_Derek]

The point i'm trying to make is that a "wooden" or actually "literal" interpretation of the phrase "So the evening and the morning WERE the fourth day" is not possible because mathematically it adds up to 12 hours. So even the so called literal intrepretation already is not quite so literal. And IMHO this phrase is not a minor point , i think there's a lot of meaning in these words.

Hi Steve,

Where are you getting the "12hrs" thing from? Evening begins at 6pm. morning begins at 6am. That's a 24hr cycle as far as I can see.

Even if that is not the case, I see evening and morning with a number constituting a day. Both evening and morning occur every day regardless of how much time you make them add up to. It can also be shown that when "day" is placed with a number, "evening" or "morning", in scripture, it is almost always a normal 24hr day.

I would agree with you that there is a lot of meaning to Genesis 1 aside from the creation narrative. I think that the whole event is a type of salvation. That does not negate the plain meaning of the passage though.

God bless,

[Guest]

Your 12-hour day argument doesn't make much sense to me

Evening in morning doesn't describe the amount of time involved during the creative acts, it is simply the phrase that indicates the transition from one day to another. The fact that the transition phrase is 'evening and morning' indicates that the days were regular days.

How do you know really what it means, are'nt you making an assumption? You may be right but we both agree that it's a phrase , not a literal statement therefore my understanding of this phrase may be right which is that it hints at a creative process over time.

[Guest]

PS...Paidion, I noticed you lived in the same province as me and thought maybe I would contact you. Then I googled Chapple and realized you're over 1000 miles from me!

Correct! About 1200 miles, actually. When I was a teacher, I became a delegate to the Men Teachers Federation. I drove to Toronto, and found it to be 1200 miles. While there, I visited Community Farm of the Brethren near Bright. Someone else visiting there mentioned that his trip from Florida was 1200 miles. I was astonished. I had driven 1200 miles, remaining in the same province all the way!

[Guest]

Hi Steve,

Where are you getting the "12hrs" thing from? Evening begins at 6pm. morning begins at 6am. That's a 24hr cycle as far as I can see.

Hi Derek, 6pm to 12AM is six hours and then 12AM to 6 AM is another six hours totaling 12 hours , or did i miss something?
OK, you're saying morning begins at 6AM , but if you wanna get technical evening usually does'nt mean the entire night.
If God wanted this to be CLEARLY a 24 hour DAY all He had to say was there was "DAY and NIGHT."
Call me crazy but the word "morning" reminds me of something being born.

[_Derek]

How do you know really what it means, are'nt you making an assumption?

Because that is the way evening and/or morning and/or a number in conjunction with "day" works in scripture.

A few examples:

Exo 10:13 And Moses stretched forth his rod over the land of Egypt, and the LORD brought an east wind upon the land all that day, and all that night; and when it was morning, the east wind brought the locusts.

Exo 19:16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

Jdg 19:5 And it came to pass on the fourth day, when they arose early in the morning, that he rose up to depart: and the damsel's father said unto his son in law, Comfort thine heart with a morsel of bread, and afterward go your way.

Jdg 19:8 And he arose early in the morning on the fifth day to depart: and the damsel's father said, Comfort thine heart, I pray thee. And they tarried until afternoon, and they did eat both of them.

You'll find over and over that if you see the word "day" coupled with morning, evening and/or a number it is always a normal day.

God bless,

[_Derek]

Hi Derek, 6pm to 12AM is six hours and then 12AM to 6 AM is another six hours totaling 12 hours , or did i miss something?
OK, you're saying morning begins at 6AM , but if you wanna get technical evening usually does'nt mean the entire night.
If God wanted this to be CLEARLY a 24 hour DAY all He had to say was there was "DAY and NIGHT."
Call me crazy but the word "morning" reminds me of something being born.

"Morning" is the beginning of the first 12hr period beginning at 6am. "Evening" is the beginning of the second 12hr period beginning at 6pm. 24hrs. Whether or not you call the whole 12hr periods morning or evening is irrelevant.

I agree, as I said above, that Genesis 1 is a type of salvation. In no way does this change the plain meaning of the passage.

If God wanted this to be CLEARLY a 24 hour DAY all He had to say was there was "DAY and NIGHT."

Or He could use the phrase the way that it is used over and over in scripture. (see above post for a few of literally dozens of examples).

God bless,

[Guest]

To answer the original question, my position is strongly towards the YEC side (probably a '2').

Hi Derek, 6pm to 12AM is six hours and then 12AM to 6 AM is another six hours totaling 12 hours , or did i miss something?
OK, you're saying morning begins at 6AM , but if you wanna get technical evening usually does'nt mean the entire night.
If God wanted this to be CLEARLY a 24 hour DAY all He had to say was there was "DAY and NIGHT."
Call me crazy but the word "morning" reminds me of something being born.

"Morning" is the beginning of the first 12hr period beginning at 6am. "Evening" is the beginning of the second 12hr period beginning at 6pm. 24hrs. Whether or not you call the whole 12hr periods morning or evening is irrelevant.

Well stated Derek. Further, I think its worth pointing out that God himself defines the word 'day' in Gen 1:5. That definition of course has to do with the presence (or absence) of physical 'light' which agrees well with the YEC position and morning/evening pairs for each day.