Why exactly did Jesus have to die?

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_Derek
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Post by _Derek » Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:01 pm

Ely,
Ive been thinking about this a lot today. It seems to me God only requires a change in the disposition of a man toward him (repentance) in order to forgive him and grant him mercy...
This does not mean that justification comes apart from God's greater plan which "manifested" in Christ (Rom. 3:21-22).

The placing of one's faith in God, and throwing themselves on His mercy is the same, in a sense, as trusting in Christ. People were trusting in the "shadows" of good things to come (namely the Messiah), and God counts that faith as righteousness. This may even be true today. That if people respond in faith and repentance toward God, with the light that they have been given, that they can be justified. This still does not mean that they are forgiven apart from Christ, because no one may come to the Father, but through Him (Jn. 14:6).

All of the different ways this faith has been expressed, (and may still be expressed, by those without the light of the Gospel) is very nicely put in Hebrews 11. It would be hard to think, that those people, (like Rahab), were justified with the little knowledge that they had, but now, after Christ has come, salvation has become harder to obtain for those with similar light!
I was struck by the parable of the unforgiving servant in Matthew 18. If it be true that God cannot or will not forgive sin just in repsonse to repetnance, then the parable is upside down. It is actually the master who erred because he did not insist on having his debt serviced while the wicked servant was actually godly because he did insist on getting paid!
The parable is teaching that we should always forgive others, because we have been forgiven. How that forgivness is made possible, still comports with what I said above. (In my opinion though, it would not be wise to push the meaning of the parable so far as to base our atonement theology on it, when that is not what Jesus is illustrating).
What we need is clear teaching from the scriptures that God is unable (or unwilling) to forgive sins purely in repsonse to repentance.
Heb 9:22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

God bless bro!
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Derek

Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7

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_Father_of_five
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Post by _Father_of_five » Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:20 pm

Derek wrote:The placing of one's faith in God, and throwing themselves on His mercy is the same, in a sense, as trusting in Christ. People were trusting in the "shadows" of good things to come (namely the Messiah), and God counts that faith as righteousness. This may even be true today. That if people respond in faith and repentance toward God, with the light that they have been given, that they can be justified. This still does not mean that they are forgiven apart from Christ, because no one may come to the Father, but through Him (Jn. 14:6).
Derek,

I agree with what you have said here. :D I believe that the working of the Holy Spirit in the world today is responsible for bringing people to repentance who may not have been taught the Gospel message by man. These people, who respond to the conviction of the Holy Spirit (evidenced by their repentance), are Christians but just don't know it. At least, that's how I see it.

Todd
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_Derek
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Post by _Derek » Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:26 pm

I agree with what you have said here.
It finally happened! Amen. All things are possible! :lol:

God bless brother,
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Derek

Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7

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_Homer
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Post by _Homer » Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:49 pm

Ely,

You said:
I was struck by the parable of the unforgiving servant in Matthew 18. If it be true that God cannot or will not forgive sin just in repsonse to repetnance, then the parable is upside down. It is actually the master who erred because he did not insist on having his debt serviced while the wicked servant was actually godly because he did insist on getting paid!
May I suggest you consider the parable again? In the parable the King (God) was settling the accounts of his servants. One owed him 10,000 talents (sins), an amount that the servant could not possibly repay (this can not be overemphasized; Jesus has described an impossible situation). Upon an appeal for mercy, the King forgave (suffered the loss, bore the cost himself) the servant's debt. Never asked for even a token amount. This is Grace taught as clearly as it can possibly be taught!

In the same way, God internalized, in the person of His Son, the debt of sin of those who appeal to Him for mercy. He does not insist upon the sinner paying for his sins himself as the wicked servant did. The forgiveness may appear to cost God nothing, on the contrary, it cost Him dearly.

I pray you (and others) can see this truth.
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_Derek
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Post by _Derek » Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:57 pm

Good point Homer. For some reason, I didn't even think about the king "bearing the cost himself" in the forgiving of the debt.
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Derek

Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7

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_Father_of_five
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Post by _Father_of_five » Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:35 am

Homer wrote:May I suggest you consider the parable again? In the parable the King (God) was settling the accounts of his servants. One owed him 10,000 talents (sins), an amount that the servant could not possibly repay (this can not be overemphasized; Jesus has described an impossible situation). Upon an appeal for mercy, the King forgave (suffered the loss, bore the cost himself) the servant's debt. Never asked for even a token amount. This is Grace taught as clearly as it can possibly be taught!

In the same way, God internalized, in the person of His Son, the debt of sin of those who appeal to Him for mercy. He does not insist upon the sinner paying for his sins himself as the wicked servant did. The forgiveness may appear to cost God nothing, on the contrary, it cost Him dearly.

I pray you (and others) can see this truth.
Homer,

Thanks for this excellent explanation of this parable. It makes perfect sense when you think of money and debt. Would you please expand your explanation to show how sin is a debt, how is it paid (or repaid), why must it be paid, and what is accomplished (what good comes from it) through repayment of it? I have a hard time understanding this.

I can understand that if I steal something that I can repay someone for their loss, but that is more like money. If I offend someone, I can apologize. If I kill someone, then what?...I guess I can go to jail for years, but that doesn't make it right, but did I pay for the crime? And most punishments issued by our justice system are intended to reform the offender, right? Some, I suppose, are life sentences which are designed to remove the menace from society so that he can do no more damage.

Obviously, though, we are not talking about a debt to society, but a debt to God. Is this different? How? Also, in society, penalties for crimes are meant to be a deterrent to would-be offenders. Is this the same with God? Are His threats of wrath meant to dissuade us from sin?

Anyway, if you can find the words (or scriptures) to explain this I would appreciate it. Thanks.

Todd
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_Homer
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Post by _Homer » Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:27 am

Todd,

Jesus chose to use the word opheilema, "debt" (Matt. 6:12), metaphorically of sin because it demands expiation.

I am unable to do the subject of the atonement justice but here is an excellent article to consider, referencing many scriptures:

http://www.johnmarkhicks.faithsite.com/ ... p?CID=7015

I have Hick's book he mentions at the end, "Yet will I Trust Him". It is the best I have ever read on suffering. Hicks has endured enormous suffering and brought me to tears more than once.
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_Derek
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Post by _Derek » Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:48 am

I have read this article several times, at Homers recommendation awhile back, and I highly recommend it. Good stuff.

God bless,
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Derek

Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7

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_TK
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Post by _TK » Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:40 am

Greg Koukl writes:

Here’s the second question: Why is it an act of love for God the Father to punish His Son? How is it the Father’s love? I could see it being an act of love for Jesus if he chose to do it, but how is it an act of love by the Father that Jesus would lay down His life? How is it loving that the Father would punish a third party?

If you did something bad to me, and I grabbed Joe Blow over there and said to you that I was going to forgive you because I’m going to punch this guy out, you would wonder how it’s an act of love for me to forgive you by punching him out? It might be his love if he said to punch him out on your behalf, but hardly an act of my love. Unless - in the case of God the Father, and the Son, Jesus, that the Son is also God. That is, it is not just another man that the Father is punishing for our sins, but God who became a man Himself and took upon Himself His own just punishment.

This is why it’s so important to approach this challenge with an understanding of the Trinity, and understanding of the nature of God Jesus is God; He isn’t just an innocent third party. He is the Judge Himself suffering, the One who determines the punishment takes it, the One who passes judgment receives it. It is Jesus, the incarnate God. That is how it’s an example of the love of God.


TK
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"Were not our hearts burning within us? (Lk 24:32)

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_Father_of_five
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Post by _Father_of_five » Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:48 pm

Homer wrote:I am unable to do the subject of the atonement justice but here is an excellent article to consider, referencing many scriptures:

http://www.johnmarkhicks.faithsite.com/ ... p?CID=7015

I have Hick's book he mentions at the end, "Yet will I Trust Him". It is the best I have ever read on suffering. Hicks has endured enormous suffering and brought me to tears more than once.
Thanks, Homer.

I read the article. I can't say that I understand it, but I do admit there is much scriptural support for it. Here is a quote that did make sense.
This understanding of the atonement has been criticized as unintelligible to the modern mind. It appears to value human sacrifice and thus sounds rather mythological and hideous. But the principle of inner moral conflict whereby one sacrifices himself in self-giving love rather than compromising his own principles is still valued. We see it in parents who are torn apart with conflicting emotions when their children go astray. They long to forgive, but not in such a way that condones or encourages the wrongdoing. True forgiveness is costly. It cost God something.
As a father of five children, I can identify with his comment about parents emotions about their children.

Setting this aside for the moment, would you agree that forgiveness is conditional upon the repentence of the sinner?...even though Christ made this sacrifice? I think I know how you will answer that question.

Second question: If someone were to repent, knowing nothing about Jesus, would he still find forgiveness?

Todd
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