Why exactly did Jesus have to die?

[Guest]

...is it absolutely necessary that an individual who truly seeks after God in a real repentance needs to have any special knowledge or understanding of it for it to have its intended affect?

FOF, I do not think that a person can be regenerated without submitting oneself to Christ and following Him. "There is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we can be saved". I don't see how a person could submit to Christ, if one had never heard of Him.

That is not to say that such people will undergo the same degree of corrective judgment which rebels against Christ will undergo. It probably will take very little for many of them to see the Light, in that great day.

On the other hand, some of us may have the same exclusivism within Christianity, that Jews had within Judaism. We may recall that Peter considered gentiles unclean persons who could not be saved. But God showed him through a vision "what God has cleansed, do not call 'unholy'".

Later Peter explained to those who had assembled with Cornelius, "You yourselves understand how out of place it is for a Jewish man to associate with or to approach a foreigner but yet God showed me not to call any person unholy or unclean."

Peter also said, "Truly I perceive that God shows no partiality, but in every nation any one who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him."

So the words of Peter suggest that a person outside Judaism can "do what is right".

Can the same thing be said about those outside Christianity? Can they avail themselves of the enabling grace of Christ without being aware of the source?

I am inclined to think so. But this is a matter that is not spelled out in scripture, and so I don't want to declare it to be so as if it were a known fact.

[Guest]

I am inclined to think so. But this is a matter that is not spelled out in scripture, and so I don't want to declare it to be so as if it were a known fact.

Thanks, Paidion.

That was a very good answer. I realize that you could only offer your opinion, and I appreciate you doing so.

Todd

[Guest]

paidion wrote:

So the words of Peter suggest that a person outside Judaism can "do what is right".

True, but the gentiles were believers in the one true God.

Romans 1 suggests that the one true God is revealed in some way to everyone. However, i think the likelihood of a person (or a people) following the one true God, without instruction, is minimal, thus the great Commission.

TK

[Guest]

I cannot give a definitive answer as to how Christ’s death makes righteousness possible. But then, can those who think Christ’s death is necessary in order to receive forgiveness, explain how forgiveness is made possible through His death? I know they can state their idea that it is somehow a payment made to the Father (some say that the payment is made to the devil) for our sins so that we don’t have to pay for them, and this they call “justice”. But that still doesn’t explain why His death was necessary in order that sinners might be forgiven. Why could He not have made the required “payment” in some other way.




Apparently symbolism is incredibly important to God, far more so then it is to us. And Christ's death has tremendous symbolism because i think in God's eyes Christ is the representative of mankind and what happens to Jesus can happen to each and everyone of us.
Christ is the firstfruits of the resurrection and because he lives so can we but we could'nt unless he came first. "Without me you can do nothing" , i think he means more then just "do nothing in this life."
Since "the wages of sin is death" and since we will be resurrected the only explanation for the PAYMENT for us of the PRICE of the "wages of sin" was the price that Christ paid on behalf of us.
Therefore since there was a price for sin which was death and since this price was apparently paid for us by Jesus through his death and since we may be resurrected because he was resurrected the conclusion IMO is that in the eyes of God , Christ was indeed our substitute.
Why God would have Christ PAY the penalty of sin for us isn't explained but whether it's because of symbolism or whether it's because of God's sense of justice or perhaps it was just the way God showed us mercy
it seems to me to have happened in this way.
Perhaps it seems cruel that Jesus had to endure the torture that he did but perhaps God allowed Jesus to go through it because He knew Jesus could endure it and like Hebrews says "through his suffering he was perfected."

[Guest]

Since "the wages of sin is death" and since we will be resurrected the only explanation for the PAYMENT for us of the PRICE of the "wages of sin" was the price that Christ paid on behalf of us.

Steve 7150, what do you mean by "the payment for us of the price of the 'wages of sin'"? Do you find that phrase or equivalent concept anywhere in scripture?

Therefore since there was a price for sin which was death and since this price was apparently paid for us by Jesus through his death...

Where do you read that Jesus "paid the price for sin"?

I know this concept can be read into some scriptures. But I have never encountered any that explicitly state such.

[Guest]

Steve 7150, what do you mean by "the payment for us of the price of the 'wages of sin'"? Do you find that phrase or equivalent concept anywhere in scripture?

Paidion, If the wages (penalty) of sin is death but the GIFT of God is eternal life what could the gift be?
IMO the gift of God is the forgiving of the just penalty that He first revealed to Adam.
"But we see Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels , crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the GRACE of God he might taste death FOR EVERYONE." Heb 2.9

"For everyone" seems to me to disclose the substitutionary sacrifice he made for everyone or in place of each of us.
And forgiveness is not exclusive of repentence and deliverance from sin which are also a result of the atonement.
Because i think the atonement covers past,present and future sin.

[Guest]

Because i think the atonement covers past,present and future sin.

In a women's bible study which my wife attended, one woman said to her,
"My sins are forgiven ---- past, present, and future! I could go out and kill someone this afternoon, and not repent of it, and I'd still go to heaven!"

[Guest]

If the wages (penalty) of sin is death but the GIFT of God is eternal life what could the gift be?
IMO the gift of God is the forgiving of the just penalty that He first revealed to Adam.

If Jesus' death was substitutionary for our death, why do we all still die? This must be speaking of a spiritual truth - not physical. However, I am not saying that Jesus didn't die a horrible physical death. So could it be that Paul was saying, "the wages of sin is [spiritual] death, but the gift of God is [abundant] life"? It seems to me that either this is true, or this was all pointing to the resurrection. Thoughts?

Todd

[Guest]

In a women's bible study which my wife attended, one woman said to her,
"My sins are forgiven ---- past, present, and future! I could go out and kill someone this afternoon, and not repent of it, and I'd still go to heaven!"


Right, of course that statement is misguided because the whole bible teaches that the intention of our hearts is what God is mostly concerned about. That lady needs to read the beatitudes several times.

[Guest]

If Jesus' death was substitutionary for our death, why do we all still die?

I think Jesus and Paul and Peter referred to christians who "died" as sleeping which is not actually dying. When you sleep your mind has dreams and can think and process thoughts and IMO although i know Paidion disagrees i think since the resurrection a christian's "inner man" goes to be with the Lord upon his death. "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit and then he (Stephen) fell asleep." Acts.