Unity and the Early Church

[Guest]

Also, he would fellowship and call a believer one who doesn't agree with the Trinity or full diety and humanity of Christ out of ignorance. But he has much less tolerance (and I believe this is what he is talking about here) for those who would teach contrary to the clarity of Scripture (as expressed in the early creeds). He believes that the creeds are the correct understanding of scripture. To contradict them is to make a fatal Christian error.

I hear alot of "creed" talk amongst certain groups, and then you have certain groups who feel there denomination or fellowship is "the best boat afloat". Mature Christians laugh at such silly notions.

I agree with Steve, it is about Jesus. Anybody who wants to serve the Jesus that scripture puts forth will accept the scripture as the written authority of God, and live out the faith he/she professes. The ones who get caught up on secondary issues and makes them a big deal, "has left his first love" in my opinion.

[Guest]

Rae,

Your friend wrote:
"Not understanding the name in which we are baptized is heretical and un-Christian, not something that we can agree to see differently within the faith. These are issues that define who is (and who is not) a Christian."


My response:

Where does the scripture define "christian" this way (Acts 11:26)? Or are uninspired humans now qualified to create their own preferred definitions of "Christian" and then to judge all others by their man-made definitions? Is there not the danger of calling certain people "common" whom God has cleansed?

In the days before Nicea, were there no Christians in the nations where the whole church was Arian? How about after Nicea? Arianism remained dominant among most Christians for a century after the Nicene council. Were these people no longer Christians, though they were prior to the council?

Did God invest ex cathedra authority in the ecumenical councils, so that they could even define who is saved by new criteria than previously? If this was so at Nicea, why not at Trent and Vatcan 1 & 2? Do we pick and choose which councils have the right to define orthodoxy and which do not? I think the scripture alone does this, and the scripture nowhere defines "Christian" as you do.

[Guest]

Although utilized heavily in this thread, I don't think the following text is a plea against the modern day denominationalism dilemma.

1 Corinthians 1:11-13
11. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe's household, that there are contentions among you.
12. Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ."
13. Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

Where in the text does it mention Christians disagreeing over doctrine, and that they were to unite (or be of the same mind) even though doctrinal disagreements abounded? I read simply that there were contentions in Corinth and believers were wrongly following different personalities. Can this not happen while apostolic doctrine remains intact?

I believe this is a verse that shows that the apostles doctrine (even theological convictions) was to be obeyed and cherished:

2 Thessalonians 2:15
15. Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

Brian

[Guest]

I see creeds have been brought into the discussion. Has there ever been a creed that united rather than divided? That was not used to separate and persecute? It is a contradiction to claim the principle of sola scriptura as the only guide and then to use a creed to determine who one is in fellowship with. Creeds were written by fallible men.

[Guest]

I hear alot of "creed" talk amongst certain groups, and then you have certain groups who feel there denomination or fellowship is "the best boat afloat". Mature Christians laugh at such silly notions.

I don't see why you would laugh at someone such as myself who believes that they attend a place of worship that is guided, as best as I believe to be possible, by the Scriptures.

I tend to think that it is very important to be assured of what you believe and to know why you believe it. I would rather be sure of my convictions than to endlessly discuss what is right or wrong and be dogmatic on hardly anything. I have several doctrines I will not sway on and I think that that's how it should be.
I choose not to believe that just because someone is sincere about their beliefs that they should be taken seriously. I don't care how sincere a oneness Christian is, they are wrong and I have no need to waste time muddled in wrong doctrine.

[Guest]

I hear alot of "creed" talk amongst certain groups, and then you have certain groups who feel there denomination or fellowship is "the best boat afloat". Mature Christians laugh at such silly notions.

I don't see why you would laugh at someone such as myself who believes that they attend a place of worship that is guided, as best as I believe to be possible, by the Scriptures.

I tend to think that it is very important to be assured of what you believe and to know why you believe it. I would rather be sure of my convictions than to endlessly discuss what is right or wrong and be dogmatic on hardly anything. I have several doctrines I will not sway on and I think that that's how it should be.
I choose not to believe that just because someone is sincere about their beliefs that they should be taken seriously. I don't care how sincere a oneness Christian is, they are wrong and I have no need to waste time muddled in wrong doctrine.

Hi Aaron,

Please don't misunderstand me, I hold fast to the diety of Christ and Salvation by grace through faith, Etc... My point in saying what I did is that there is no one fellowship of believers that is superior to another.
I am not sure what particular group you belong to, I am sure that it is a good one. But lets just say I had a disagreement with one of your groups conclusions, would you allow me to fellowship? I am not talking about a difference of opinion on who Jesus is or something of that nature... more along the lines of Eschatology or Spiritual gifts... I had a pastor whom I love tell me last week in plain english "You could not ever preach behind the pulpit of my church because you are A-Mill and we are Pre-Mill" Albeit he said these things nicely, and being that I have feelings of steel, I didn't hold it against him, nor did I tell him that saying these kind of things could offend a weaker Brother. I just let it go in one ear and out the other..Why? Because I love the guy, even though I think he is as nutty as a Christmas fruit cake! And I still fellowship with him and his group.

On another note, you have a beautiful child. That is your child...right?
God bless.

[Guest]

good point, brody-- sometimes one simply has to keep quiet out of respect. for example, i would never start an underground teaching in my church that tithing is not a NT concept because my pastor, who i also love, would have a cow. he really believes that it is. i guess the key is picking the approriate battles.

i sense aarons frustration with this discussion and i can relate. aaron (correct me if i am wrong AD) is viewing this from a very practical standpoint. i agree with Steve G that if all Christians behaved like they were supposed to, we could have differing opinions and still get along peacefully. but we know from practical experience that this generally isnt the case (there are exceptions; steve mentioned a couple). but in the typical denominational church this sadly is not the case. so in a sense fellowshipping with those who hold similar views than yourself cuts through a lot of distractions and allows learning and growing to take place. if there is constant disputing over non-essential matters, this would be frustrating to established believers and discouraging to new ones.

TK

[Guest]

but in the typical denominational church this sadly is not the case. so in a sense fellowshipping with those who hold similar views than yourself cuts through a lot of distractions and allows learning and growing to take place. if there is constant disputing over non-essential matters, this would be frustrating to established believers and discouraging to new ones.

Again it comes down to the spirit of the leadership of that church and whether differences lead to disputes or an opportunity to learn from others. A great deal of the bible is metaphorical and Jesus often spoke in parables because he did'nt want the Pharisees to understand (Mark 4.11). Even Paul said that now we look through a glass darkly so what does this tell us? It tells me that if the glass is foggy we need to keep our spiritual eyes wide open and accept the fact that we may not be meant to have all the answers on this side of life.
Therefore we can either dispute our differences or welcome them as opportunities to learn.

[Guest]

i sense aarons frustration with this discussion and i can relate. aaron (correct me if i am wrong AD) is viewing this from a very practical standpoint. i agree with Steve G that if all Christians behaved like they were supposed to, we could have differing opinions and still get along peacefully. but we know from practical experience that this generally isnt the case (there are exceptions; steve mentioned a couple). but in the typical denominational church this sadly is not the case. so in a sense fellowshipping with those who hold similar views than yourself cuts through a lot of distractions and allows learning and growing to take place. if there is constant disputing over non-essential matters, this would be frustrating to established believers and discouraging to new ones.

I think I disagree. I would assert that it is crippling to Christians when they only interact with other Christians who believe exactly as they do. This holds true culturally and theologically. IMHO, it seems immaturity and an inappropriate attachment to an idea (over the truth) leads many to sequester themselves in a homogenous group to their own detriment. This attitude can create an environment where people stop thinking for themselves and need someone to tell them how to think (Mormons or JW's). Diversity in ideas is good for the Body of Christ.

Take this forum. It is filled with folks who disagree on all kinds of things. There are even some that do not follow Christ. Yet I (and many would agree) have grown and continue to do so because of the interaction on the issues to which Christians agree. Imagine how much you'd learn and grow in Christ if this forum were a local meeting of believers.

Growth in Christ is not only intellectual assent to truth, but the practice of Godliness through unity, righteousness and love. Believers find the truth when they are motivated and passionate about studying the Scriptures and following Jesus. Discussions over secondary issues can become distracting, but that is generally avoided when done in the love and unity of Christ. What can be frustrating and divisive about debates over secondary matters is when either party (or both) are more interested in winning the argument than the unity of the body of Christ. However, when we care more about the unity of Christ than making everyone agree with us, God is glorified.

Remember, there is nothing to be afraid of. The truth always has the best arguments and will be found by those who earnestly and humbly seek it.

Dave

[Guest]

I don't want you all to think that my church would shut out anyone with different ideas than our own. There are many of us that disagree on some of the hair splitters. I just happen to think that the essentials are more than just that Jesus is the Son of God and the only way to Heaven.

There are many doctrines out there that i don't want to hear discussed in my church unless it is to show scripturally how they are incorrect. I do believe that unity in doctrine promotes growth and division in doctrine promotes stagnation. I don't think that those of differing doctrinal stances can't be unified in Christ, but in a setting such as a local gathering of believers, I see it as essential to establishing your belifs to at least agree on many of the larger and more relevant issues.

Like Dave said - this forum is great and beneficial because we can all discuss where we come from on different points, but at my place of worship I like as much unity as I can get. That's when things get accomplished (Acts 2:1, Ezra 3:1, and sadly Gen 11:6)

Oh, and thanks, Brody. That's my boy Gabe. Today is actually his 1st birthday and he's pestering me while I type this actually. I better go play with him like he wants me to I suppose.

God bless you all