The Narrow Path Ministries

Paidion made this statement on another thread.

However, no one can know in advance what a free will agent will choose ---not even God.

I strongly disagree, and would affirm the words of Dr. Walter Martin "Let us never make the mistake of telling an omnipotent being he can't do something".

God bless

P.S This thread is not to flame anyone, I just want to see everyones opinion on this matter.

I agree with you, brody. I believe, without proof, that God exists in all time and every scenerio of time. I, therefore, believe that He knows all and sees all whether it be from eternity past to eternity future. In all He is all. "Nothing is hidden from the Father" so if nothing is hidden then all is seen.

BTW brody, I like your avatar. I saw that character in a movie and thought the movie was quite revealing of human nature.

That is about the most extreme position on predestination that I believe I have ever heard. Who are we to suggest that God doesn't know it all? We are not all-knowing either. I would think that someone would need to be all-knowing themselves to make that kind of conclusion as to what God doesn't know. Only an omnicient person can prove a negative.
D.

I believe, without proof, that God exists in all time and every scenerio of time. I, therefore, believe that He knows all and sees all whether it be from eternity past to eternity future.

Your conclusion does not logically follow from your premise.
I am curious. Do you believe that "eternity past" and "eternity future" is somehow "outside of time"? And what would that actually mean?

Time actually had a beginning. With respect to that beginning, there was no "before".

In any case, it is clear from scripture that God does not KNOW in advance what a free-will agent will choose.

But before you pounce upon that, the word "know" is used in a number of different ways. In the way that I am using the word, one of the conditions for someone to know that statement X is true, is that statement X must in fact BE true. For example, I may state that I know my wife is now upstairs in my house. But if you could conclusively show that she in NOT now upstairs, then I didn't KNOW what I thought I knew. If a statement is untrue, then NO ONE can know it to BE true..

This fact in no way limits the power of an omnipotent God.

A statement about a future act of a free-will agent is now neither true.
nor false. So that is why such a statement is now UNKNOWABLE.

Let's assume that at some future time T, I am not bound or physically restrained in any way.

1. If it is now true that I will raise my hand at time T, then I will be unable to refrain from raising my hand at time T. Thus I will not have the free will to choose to raise my hand at time T.

2. If it is now false that I will raise my hand at time T, then I will not be able to raise my hand at time T. Again --- no free will.

To be consistent with free will, we must say that statements about my future actions have no truth value NOW. They are neither true nor false NOW. These statements become true or false depending upon my choice.

Now concerning God, I ask the question, "Can God create a stone so large that He cannot lift it?"

If the answer is "yes" then there is something God cannot do, namely lift the stone.

If the answer is "no" then there is something God cannot do, namely, create such a stone.

I believe the answer is "no". God cannot create such a stone. For it would be a contradiction in terms to affirm that an omnipotent being to do so. If He could create such a stone, He would not be omnipotent. Thus it is NOT blasphemy to state that God cannot create such a stone. It is in no way "telling an omnipotent being that there's something he cannot do".
Indeed, it's quite the opposite. God can do anything that is it logically possible to do. Contradictions are not objects of power.

Similarily, for God (or anyone else) to know in advance what a free will agent will choose, is a contradiction. If that could be known in advance, then a statement about that choice is NOW either true of false. But if that were so, it would be inconsistent with free-will agency.

In my next post, I will quote a number of scriptures that support my statement that God does not KNOW (in the absolute sense of "KNOW") in advance what a free-will agent will choose.

Paidion wrote:Time actually had a beginning. With respect to that beginning, there was no "before".

"No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began." (1 Corinthians 2:7) How can God have something (wisdom) and predestine something (our glory) during a period in which it seems you suggest nothing existed? 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 1:2 also refer to "before be beginning of time" in reference to God.

Now concerning God, I ask the question, "Can God create a stone so large that He cannot lift it?"
I believe the answer is "no". God cannot create such a stone. For it would be a contradiction in terms to affirm that an omnipotent being to do so.

So God couldn't create something that He is not more powerful than...except time? I'd suggest a review of "God, Time, and Eternity" by William Lane Craig.
D.

"No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began." (1 Corinthians 2:7)

I don't know what translation you are using. In any case, that is not what the passage says.

The expression is "pro ton aionon".
The meaning is "before the ages" not "before time began". The referent of the expression "the ages" is not clear in scripture. In any case it is not necessary to assume that there was no time before "the ages."

Paidion wrote:The referent of the expression "the ages" is not clear in scripture. In any case it is not necessary to assume that there was no time before "the ages."

What about 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 1:2? And, while I agree that some things are not always a necessary assumption, are you suggesting that these three texts cannot mean that God existed prior to time starting? If God intended to impart that He was outside of time and existed prior ti it, could He have said so using these phrases?
D.

Sorry if this sounds terse, don't have a lot of time.

For those who believe God has absolute knowledge of our decisions before we make them, I'm curious to know how you explain Gen 22:12.

Perry wrote:For those who believe God has absolute knowledge of our decisions before we make them, I'm curious to know how you explain Gen 22:12.

I know right now that I'm a guy. Doesn't mean I just figured it out. According to my Strongs dictionary, the word "now" is "to know (properly to ascertain by seeing);used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially". It could mean that "Now I see..." as opposed to "I just now realized something...". It is almost as if God is telling Abram, "See how you have now shown me..." as a test of Abram for Abram's benefit, not Gods. I think some would argue that God knew the extent of Abram's faith, but Abram needed to know it as well.

Another possible way to look at it is that the "angel of the Lord" here spoke of God in the third person and therefore the text doesn't force the interpretation that it was God finding out something new, but the "angel of the Lord". Not sure I would agree with that, but I can see where someone might make that argument.

This interesting article on Open Theism and Divine Foreknowledge also addresses the point with some other counter-points.
D.

I also believe God knows everything (which, of course, includes our future free will choices).

Scripture says He knows our words before we even speak them
Scripture says He knows the end from the beginning
Scripture says Jesus knew Peter would deny, Judas would betray

Etc.

I have no reason, that I know of, to doubt that God knows every detail of the future. The fact that He is God, by definition, seems to make this likely. And I can not think of any theological reason why that makes this limitation necessary.