The Narrow Path Ministries

In John 10.34 Jesus quoted Psalm 82.6 in answering the Pharisees accusation of blasphemy in that he was making himself like God. Many commentators interpret the word "gods" to mean judges but does it? Was Jesus responding by claiming that many men were called judges so it was OK for him to make himself to be like God? Does this make sense?
In Psalm 82.6 the full verse says "I have said, Ye are gods and ALL OF YOU are children of the Most High." So "gods" is a description of all of them who are God's sons, not just some judges.
In the beginning of Psalm 82 it says "God stands in the congregation of the mighty , He judges among the gods." 82.1 . The word translated as "gods" and "mighty" is elohim which is the plural of God. and this is an earthly scene. In Hebrews 2 where it quotes Psalm 8 to say that man is a little lower then the angels , "elohim" is translated into angels.
I think "gods" means "having dominion" the same way Paul refers to Satan being the "god" of this world. If this is correct then the sons of God should stand in the same position that Adam did being restored to God and having dominion of this world. Would'nt God empower the sons of God to exercise this dominion? What do you think?

Psalm 82 New Revised Standard Version:

1 God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
2 "How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Give justice to the weak and the orphan; maintain the right of the lowly and the destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked."
5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding, they walk around in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 I say, "You are gods, children of the Most High, all of you;
7 nevertheless, you shall die like mortals, and fall like any prince."

Steve 7150 wrote:The word translated as "gods" and "mighty" is elohim which is the plural of God. and this is an earthly scene.

I am not at all certain that this is an earthly scene. If this council of gods are human beings, if they are mortals, then why does God say, "You shall die like mortals"? If they are mortals, they will die, of course, as mortals, not like mortals.

Is it possible that this divine council met at Yahweh's throne, and some of them had left their first position and were making independent decisions, not judging justly as Yahweh required, and showing partialitly to the wicked?

The primary meaning of the singular "el" or "eloah" is "mighty one" and thus the plural "elohim" --- "mighty ones". It is interesting that the names of angels often contain "el" --- Michael, Gabrael, Raphael, etc.

Notice this interesting literal translation (Concordant Version) of the first verse:

Elohim is stationed in the congregation of El. He judges among the elohim.

There appears to be an "Elohim" within the "elohim". In Genesis 1, it was the Elohim who said, "Let's create man in our own image." Who was that plural Elohim who created man? Was it the Father and his only begotten Son, begotten as the Father's first act, thereby bringing time itself into existence? Was El the Father, whom Jesus called "the only true God"? Did the Father and the Son comprise the Elohim? Were the other elohim who sat in council of El the angels?

Is this the way in which Jesus' comment in John 10 makes sense?

33 The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we stone you but for blasphemy; because you, being a man, make yourself God."
34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods’?
35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came (and scripture cannot be broken),
36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

Was Jesus saying that if there were others called elohim, then for Him to say that He was the Son of God, and thus one of the Elohim, is surely not blasphemy?

Interestingly enough, in Genesis 2, the Elohim is called "Yahweh Elohim". Both the Father and the Son share the name "Yaweh" as is evidenced in Gen 19:24 where it is written, "Then Yahweh rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh out of heaven." Two Divine Individuals each of whom is called "Yahweh" in one verse! One in heaven who is the source of the judgment and one on earth through whom the judgment falls! "Yahweh" means "the One who was and is and shall be".
Rev 4:8 makes reference to "the One who was and is and is to come".

It is interesting that the singular form "El" does not occur very often in the Old Testament in reference to God, except in the book of Job where it occurs 52 times. Job is thought to be the oldest book of the Bible. It is my thought that where the singular "El" is used for "God" the reference is to the Father alone.

Good evening,
For an excellent study of the Divine Council please go to http://www.michaelsheiser.com/

For the past few years I have been a subscriber to his newsletter. For $10.00 a year I think it is well worth it. I believe you'd all enjoy it.
Steve

I am not at all certain that this is an earthly scene. If this council of gods are human beings, if they are mortals, then why does God say, "You shall die like mortals"? If they are mortals, they will die, of course, as mortals, not like mortals.

Thanks for your response Paidion. In John 10.35 Jesus continued "If he called them gods to whom the word of God came and scripture can not be broken , do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world , You are blaspheming because I said , I am the Son of God?"

So "to whom the Word of God came" are humans, are they not? Perhaps though they died like mortals , perhaps the possibility existed that they did'nt have to die like mortals?

So "to whom the Word of God came" are humans, are they not? Perhaps though they died like mortals , perhaps the possibility existed that they did'nt have to die like mortals?

As I understand it right now, they are not humans.

Elohim is stationed in the congregation of El. He judges among the elohim. "How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Give justice to the weak and the orphan; maintain the right of the lowly and the destitute. Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked. They have neither knowledge nor understanding, they walk around in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken."

I say, "You are gods, children of the Most High, all of you; nevertheless, you shall die like mortals, and fall like any prince."

The word of God came to this council of elohim. That word is recorded in the passage. According to God's word to them, those elohim, the messengers of God, were to rescue the weak and the needy. They were to deliver them from the hand of the wicked. Instead, they judged unjustly and showed partiality to the wicked.

The word of God came to this council of elohim. That word is recorded in the passage. According to God's word to them, those elohim, the messengers of God, were to rescue the weak and the needy. They were to deliver them from the hand of the wicked. Instead, they judged unjustly and showed partiality to the wicked.


But did'nt Peter or Paul say that the angels desired to know the Word of God but it was not given to them? Sorry i can't remember where this verse is offhand.

But did'nt Peter or Paul say that the angels desired to know the Word of God but it was not given to them? Sorry i can't remember where this verse is offhand.

You probably have the following passage in mind:

1 Peter 1:12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things which have now been announced to you by those who preached the good news to you through the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.

This passage does not say that God did not speak to the angels (give them his word) but that matters relating to the gospel or good news apparently was not given to them, although they wanted to understand it. The gospel just doesn't apply to angels, and so it is unnecessary for them to look into it.

If Michael Heiser is right (See the link Stephen posted), then there would be no contradiction anyway. For Heiser does not believe the elohim are, in fact, angels.

By the way, Stephen, I want to thank you for the link you shared. I went to it and downloaded all the files relating to the divine council. I intend to read these and give them some thought. So far, my thoughts have arisen from reading the scripture only.

In John 10.35 Jesus continued "If he called them gods to whom the word of God came and scripture can not be broken , do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world , You are blaspheming because I said , I am the Son of God




But the bottom line is that to those who the Word of God came are "gods" according to Jesus which he used to justify to these Pharisees why he could call himself "Son of God."

Hello STEVE, et al

Stephen,
I've been familiar with Heiser's stuff for a few years and have read many articles by him and/or about his ideas. I've also heard him interviewed on radio programs (and may still have links to them some place)....

STEVE wrote:But the bottom line is that to those who the Word of God came are "gods" according to Jesus which he used to justify to these Pharisees why he could call himself "Son of God.

And earlier, Paidion wrote:Was Jesus saying that if there were others called elohim, then for Him to say that He was the Son of God, and thus one of the Elohim, is surely not blasphemy?

Actually, this thread's topic is an ongoing "study" I've been doing since about 2003 or so. Unfortunately, due to some computer crashes (I need a new one!) I've lost a lot of notes.

I saw this thread when STEVE started it and have taken up the "study" again, but haven't posted till now. I've been able to "recover" some old links I lost and have them stored in my computer.

As we can see, the subject matter is pretty complicated.
If I knew Hebrew; it would surely help! "The Names of God"...is complicated enough, in and of itself, even for the full-time theologians who study this!

I'd like to do my "study" (at least in part, on the forum).
And I'm not sure where to begin. Using STEVE's quote (above) as a spring-board for discussion, so to speak; we've run into an immediate difficulty. What difficulty? The "gods" in Psalms 82 are also angels...and this doesn't easily "fit" into our customary ("evangelical, Bible-believers") theology.

To make matters worse, as it were; what appears in Psalms 82 has been assessed as an "old(er) view of God" as compared to the "monotheism" we are more familiar with. In other words, and at least to some scholars; Psalms 82 might reflect a primitive form of Jewish beliefs predating "monotheism." That is, at least since the times of Josiah's (and/or Hezekiah's) reforms: To wit, Psalms 82 could portray either some form of polytheism or henotheism (the belief that there are many gods, but only one is to be worshiped).

Psalms 82, in differing interpretations, can be confusing.
For now (and to get into the discussion further), I believe the text may be talking about how the Most High God (El) was speaking to his "sons"...the other "gods" (elohim).

Heiser, if I'm not mistaken, sees (the trinitarian) God as "Yahweh" and that it is he who is speaking in this text. Heiser equates "Yahweh" as the name of God, as do virtually all Christians and all Jews (though Jews may not pronounce YHWH, or when some do, they do it differently; they don't say "Yahweh").

Picking up with Paidion's quote (above), I agree.
Yes, it just may be that Jesus was accused of blasphemy for saying, in effect, "I am one of the gods!" (an elohim). This possibility immediately makes us raise questions! Why? In what sense could such an assertion be compatible with the doctrine of the Trinity? Could Jesus have been "referring back" to an ancient concept of the godhead? (which had been abandoned for a few hundred years)? If this may have been the case, was this "old-theology"--a not-so-strictly-"monotheistic" theology---what was so offensive to the Jews? (and I'll leave it there for now).

That's about all I want to post (hope I didn't say too much!)
Except to mention that Deu. 32:8 is another relevant passage to this discussion: The older text (than the MT, (Masoretic Text) from the DSS (Dead Sea Scrolls) has "sons of God" at 32:8b. Virtually all scholars agree "sons of God" is the proper rendering (as opposed to "sons of Israel" in MT, and "angels of God" in LXX (Greek Septuagint).

Deu. 32:8 in combination with Ps. 82 might reveal a differing and "foreign" kind of theology-proper than we're used to ("theology" as in: The Doctrine of God, or Theology 101, we could say). "Yahweh," as a theory goes, was the deity assigned specifically to Israel. Assigned? By whom? El! (is and was he God the Father?)....

See Paul's "revision" of Deu. 6:4, the Shema, at 1 Cor. 8:6 (in conjunction with my last paragraph, above)....

I have lots of info, related texts, ideas, and theories and just wanted to get-in on this.
I didn't know where to start, so there it is, folks, thanks!

In John 10.35 Jesus continued "If he called them gods to whom the word of God came and scripture can not be broken , do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world , You are blaspheming because I said , I am the Son of God






Thanks everyone for the interesting responses re who or what is the "divine council."
However my main inquiry was re what Jesus meant by "ye are gods?"
Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees but what he said was that, to whom the Word of God came are "gods."
What does the word "gods" mean? Does it mean judges appointed by God or is it referring to any believer of God's Word?