Genesis Of Doctrines:

[Guest]

I was wondering when the genesis, (approximately), of the following doctrines occured:

Eternal Security
Millenial Kingdom
The Tribulation

Thank You,
Bud

[Guest]

Eternal Security (aka Once saved always saved): North Africa, Bishop Augustine of Hippo...mid fifth century C.E. Modified fatalism of his old Manichaeanism faith. All Augustinian educated Theologians held similar views, such as Martin Luther (Lutheranism), Zwingli, Beza, Knox, Jean Calvin (Reformed Church Calvinism) and Roman Catholic Bishop Jansen (Catholic Jansenism).

Millenialism (aka Messiah's earthly reign for 1000 years): Hebrew Religion circa 600 B.C.E. Heralded by the Prophets before, during and after the Babylonian Exile. Held by all Jewish sects save the Sadducees. Taught by Messiah, the Apostles and the Church until the mid fifth century. The Nazaraean Community (Judeo-Christians) held what is now called Historic Premillenialism.

The Phrygian "Montanists" heretics (166 - 380 CE) held to a form of Pentacostal Adventism called Chiliasm. It stated that they were the True "spirit filled" and guided Church and that in Phrygia Messiah would soon come and establish his Millenial Kingdom from their Asian territories. This Movements and their Eschatology was refuted and condemned in the late 2nd Century CE. It died out by the mid 4th Century. The Premillenialists and later Amillenialists rejected this Church and her doctrines as
heretical. The early 19th Century Millerite Adventists and their many splintered sects continue in a modified form of this error...even the Mormons hold a similar elitist view.

In the post reformation era Dispensationalist Premillenialism, Adventist Premillenialism and Post-Millenial Praeterism developed among the AngloAmerican Protestants of the 17th, 18th and 19th Centuries.

The notion of the Great Tribulation during which the world would be tried by fire as the Beast and Fasle prophets reign in terror is as old as the Prophets of Israel. It was taught by Jewish Rabbis and Messiah Himself. It was boldly proclaimed by Paul and John in their writings. The next oldest expression of this future end time period before Messiah returns is found in the last chapter of the Book called the Didache, written in the same era as the Apocalypse.

As to the popularized notions, dates, events and myths concerning this period of testing...you must look to the early British sects called the Apostolic Catholic Church and the Plymouth Brethren (J.N. Darby). Their errors were popularised by C.I.Scofield and his Study Bible notes. Hal Lindsey, Salem Kirban and others have made a very nice living and profit off the regurgitated and ever evolving predictive theories concerning these series of events. They are all dispensationalists...none are Historic Premillenialists.

I am a Historic Premillenialist, but these are the facts you wanted. In Messiah,
+Ken Huffman.

[Guest]

lol

I would suppose that someone who believes in Eternal Security would likewise say that Jesus, Paul and the Old Testament prophets taught it. It would also seem reasonable that Amillenialists and Preterists would say their particular theological viewpoint dates back Biblical times. After all, Peter was the first Pope, wasn't he? (btw, that was tongue-in-cheek.) Don't you think your doctrinal predisposition has colored the propaganda in your answer?

[Guest]

Millenialism (aka Messiah's earthly reign for 1000 years): Hebrew Religion circa 600 B.C.E. Heralded by the Prophets before, during and after the Babylonian Exile. Held by all Jewish sects save the Sadducees. Taught by Messiah, the Apostles and the Church until the mid fifth century. The Nazaraean Community (Judeo-Christians) held what is now called Historic Premillenialism.
+Ken Huffman.

Please cite anywhere in the Bible that states a 1000 year earthly reign of the Messiah. The citations that come to mind for me speak of the kingdom having no end. Messiah ruling all nations, etc. If Jesus is ruling on earth with a "rod of iron" then how does Satan gather a multitude as great as the sand on the seashore against Him and surround Him (Rev 20)?

[Guest]

I did admit my Eschatological convictions, yes.....but that in no way negates the historical dates and origens of all said theological systems. I was born and raised a Roman Catholic until my 10th year, and I was trained in Chatechism to hold to Amillennialism eschatology as well as Augustinian Soteriology (roots of Lutheranism, Calvinism and Jansenism). I then became influenced by my Mother's "Jesus Movement" Faith and soon accepted Dispensationalism and Once Saved always saved. It was my own exploration into My Faith and My College education that caused me to research all Church views both Western, Eastern and Oriental and to consider them through the light of Biblical exegetics, origin, date and Apostolicity. I have come to my convictions and Church affiliation through this "testing of all things". If that makes my answer invalid then so be it. At least I am honest about my positions and why I have come to them.

As to the Millennial Reign of Messiah on earth from Jerusalem one need only search the Prophets and the New Testament...not to mention the Church Fathers from Clement of Rome to 300 CE.
Revelations 19:11-21 This passage details the Second Advent of Messiah as foretold in Zechariah 12:1-14;14:3-21 and redeclared in Acts 1:9-12. The union of Messiah & His Church/People at this event is the Marriage of the Lamb to His Bride. This too is detailed by Saint Paul. The Slaughter of the wicked is the hyperbolic Wedding Feast for the Birds of the Air. All this is detailed throughout the Gospels, Epistles and Prophets which preceded them.
Revelations 20:1-6 details the Earthly reign of Messiah with His Saints for 1000 years, while Satan is chained in Tartarus with the other fallen Beni Elohim (i.e. Sons of God/Angels) from before the flood. This Earthly reign is the "Times of restoration" which all the Prophets spoke of (Acts 3:19-21.) Messiah must remain in Heaven until those times manifest, but no one nows the day or hour of His Coming in which these Times will come to pass. If you are a Praeterist this may seem odd, but it is the clear and plain sense of the language of the Tanakh and New Testament...it was held by Judaism long before Messiah, and remains a core belief among much of Orthodox Judaism as well as Many non-Western Churches.
Praeterism is foreign to Historic Reformation Protestantism, Classic Roman Catholicism and unknown to Eastern Orthodoxy or any Oriental Orthodox Church. It is the fringe eschatology of certain Theonomist Calvinists, Post Millennial Charismatics and the heretical Christian Identity Movement . It is the foundation theory of Post Millenialism, and not a historic component of either Protestant Reformed or Roman Catholic Amillennialism.
As far as dates and origins go, Praeterism is the rejected child of the Jesuit Counter-reformation. It was first devised as an antidote to Protestantism's effective Historist Amillennial attacks on Rome; because if the Apocalypse was fulfilled before Luther's time then the Protestant's were not only wrong but true heretics indeed! But the Roman Catholic Church determined this new interpretation to be in conflict with Scripture and the Church Fathers. So this novelty was imediatly condemned and recanted by all who created it. Even contemporary Protestants rejected it as heresy.....some do to this very hour.
This rejected and condemned orphan of the Jesuits was adopted in the mid 18th Century by "social gospel" Protestants of the Age of Reason...poof we have Post-Millenialism! Only in the late 20th Century did Praeterism begin to influence some Amillenialists, and create a novel hybrid called partial amillennial praeterism. This new Praeterist-Amillennialism is what is espoused and taught by Steve Gregg and others.

In the Prophets two Images of the Messiah are presented Together. The First is what Judaism calls "Messiah BarYusef' (Messiah the son of Joseph) who comes as a murdered Suffering Servant and rejected Prophet. He is likened to Joseph (Messiah) rejected by his 11 Brothers (Israel). Next you have what Judaism calls "Messiah BarDawid" (Messiah son of David) who arises in His place and restores the Kingdom to Israel and from Jerusalem Governs the Gentiles. At His arrival in Glory the Resurrection of the Faithful Dead takes place. He sits as King of Kings for an Age (1000 years) and divides the Sheep (Faithful/Wheat) from the Goats(Wicked/Chaff) at His coming...sending the wicked (Satan, the Beasts and their followers) into darkness. After the Age of Messianic Restoration, then a New Heaven and New Earth (Paradise Found) comes to be where Heavenly Jerusalem merges with earthly Jerusalem and the Two Worlds become one again as in the beginning. This is Classic Jewish Messianism of the 2nd Temple era. Some felt these would be two separate Messiahs, but Jesus of Nazareth proved their perceptions wrong.....He is both the Suffering Messiah and the coming Davidic Messiah.

I am quite sure you may choose to "spiritualize" (i.e. explain away the idioms and plain sense) the words of the Prophets, the Apostles and discount Second Temple Messianism as tooo Jewish...yikes! Icky!! LOL. But these are easily researched if you so choose.....but no matter what you feel about the subject, Messiah the King is coming and we will reign with Him. Whether or not you accept these Hebraic concepts of Messiah, the Age of Restoration and all that goes with it in the Tanakh is up to you. I am convinced...but hey, I am biased according to some...



Merry Christ's Mass & Happy New Years!

+Ken Huffman

P.S.
Can you show me where Jesus Christ is declared the Second Individuality of the Triune Deity in the Bible? Where is the Nicean Creed found in the Bible? I know them to be True and am convinced of it all, but so too I am convinced about the Millennial Reign of Messiah. I can see it can you? Some can't, but their inability to see these truths do not make them biased opinions or untruths....just facts unseen by those who cannot as yet see it for whatever reasons particular to them.

[Guest]

The Hebrew and Greek texts of the Prophet Isaiah read,"and His Dominion will have no limits." Even the 1611 English means this. Boundless Realm of Kingly Rule...Israel and the Nations. Seems pretty clear to me. I see you take the English to mean "and His Reign will never cease." But if that was the meaning why was it not translated that clearly? Paul stated it best when he said,"For even as in Adam, all mankind is going to die, thus also, in Messiah, shall all be resurrected. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit is Messiah; thereupon all those who belong to Messiah shall arise at His coming (Matt. 24:27-31; Mk. 13:24-27; Lk. 21:24-33;I Cor. 15:51-55; I Thess. 4:13-18; II Thess. 1:5-10; Rev.20:4-6); after this shall the end come (Rev.20:7-10), WHENEVER HE MAY BE RELINQUISHING HIS REIGN TO GOD HIS FATHER, WHENEVER HE SHOULD BE CRUSHING ALL PRINCIPALITIES, ALL AUTHORITIES AND ALL FORCES. HE MUST CONTINUE TO REIGN UNTIL EVERY ENEMY IS PLACED UNDER HIS FEET; THE FINAL ENEMY IS DEATH. You see Messiah must subject everything under His feet.....Now, whenever everything has been made subject to Him, then the Son Himself also shall become the subject of God who made all things subject Him (Rev. 20:11-15), that God may be All in All once more (Rev. 21:1-27; 22:1-5). Now this seems pretty clear to me and all the early Church Fathers, as this is called by them the Dogma of Divine Recapitulation.
Messiah's Millennial reign will last until the destruction of all His enemies i.e. Satan, Gog & Magog. After their destruction Messiah hands off the reigns of authority to God the Father, who resurrects the wicked for their just condemnation under the LAW, and sentences them all to the Second Death. After this God and Messiah rule a New Earth & Sky from their Throne in the New Jerusalem. Ain't it sweet how Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Paul all agree on these matters? Just like the four Gospels all give their viewpoints and emphasize particulars differently.....all together they give a cohesive account. So to we find this in their Messianic Theology...which any Jew could clearly recognize as Classic Jewish Messianic Eschatology derived from the inspired Tanakh. But this is not shocking since the Way of the Nazaraeans (Judeo-Christianity) and their Messiah was born within Judaism and fulfilled it's Promises and Hopes.

As to why would the Nations rise up against Messiah's Reign? Well that is clearly taught in the Bible too. They aren't particularly fond of His Theocratic style and lack of Religious Tolerance. No pluralism in this era, no political correctness, no separation of Church and State either..LOL.
"Then it will happen that any of the survivors of the nations who remain after their attack upon Jerusalem (Rev. 16:13-16,17:14, 19:11-21) will make a yearly pilgrimage to worship the King, Yahveh of Hosts, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles (John 1:14 i.e. The Feast of the Incarnation). And it will be that whichever of the family of nations which does not make a pilgrimage to Jerusalem in order to worship the King, Yahveh of Hosts, there will be no rain on their territory." Zechariah 14:16-21. See how the Rod of Iron works? No conversion or submission...no water. No water, no life.....bummer. I think 1000 years of this upon a defeated world might just get these unregenerates upitty, and with Satan out on parole to preach revolution...well there you have it! Viva La Revolution! Viva Libertas! Oooops! Great Balls of Fire! The End! Great White Throne! Damnation! I think this pretty much sums up yer answer. Christ is not a milk toast, pasty face, blue eyed, blonde California Liberal. In fact He could be seen by the Liberals as a pick up drive'n, gun tote'n, fundi-mentalist, right winger, progressive slappin, atheist bashin Arch-Conservative Alien invader! I just call Him Lord God Messiah. I mean if you think the Liberals spit venom at Republicans, Christian Conservatives and Bush Lovers...then they're really gunna love Christ's Government! You think they support deceptive Lefties like Kerry, just wait till the Arch-Libertine Angel of Light runs for Monarch against Messiah after His first 1000 year term. You think the 2004 political season was nasty, just wait! LOL! No recounts here! All the chads will be burned up! LOL!!!!! I wonder how many Blue states will be left on the map! ROFL!! Singin the Gehinnom Blues I tell ya!

Merry Christ-Mass,
+Ken Huffman

[Guest]

Ok, we obviously disagree. And I will show you why I disagree with that line of reasoning.

1. The restoration period (Acts 3:19-21.) is the same one as we are admonished to look forward to by Peter (2 Peter 3:12-13) There is NO restoration period mentioned in Revelation 20, this is brought to the text by those who want to see it here, even when we see the restoration period clearly in Revelation 21 people "want" to see it in Revelation 20 instead.

2. You touched on this but didn't follow it through to it's logical conclusion:

Paul stated it best when he said,"For even as in Adam, all mankind is going to die, thus also, in Messiah, shall all be resurrected. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit is Messiah; thereupon all those who belong to Messiah shall arise at His coming; after this shall the end come, WHENEVER HE MAY BE RELINQUISHING HIS REIGN TO GOD HIS FATHER, WHENEVER HE SHOULD BE CRUSHING ALL PRINCIPALITIES, ALL AUTHORITIES AND ALL FORCES. HE MUST CONTINUE TO REIGN UNTIL EVERY ENEMY IS PLACED UNDER HIS FEET; THE FINAL ENEMY IS DEATH.

First, when does His "reign" begin?
Hebrews 10:12-13; But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool,
Hebrews 2:8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet." For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him.

So when Paul says: "For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet." We know by Hebrews 10:12-13 that He is now reigning until the time that EVERY ENEMY IS PLACED UNDER HIS FEET; THE FINAL ENEMY IS DEATH.

So, now we come to our next point of disagreement. When is the final ememy destroyed? Paul answers this in the same chapter,

1 Corinthians 15:50-55;
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
55 "O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?"

I couldn't be any clearer, when the "rapture" or "blessed hope" occurs, this is when death is defeated. Remember, death is the FINAL ENEMY! Death is defeated when the dead are raised. After the dead are raised and death is defeated, there can no longer be any death. This event is in Revelation 20:9 when fire came down and destroyed the enemies, just like 2 Thes chapter one states. Then Judgement occurs. Just something to think about.

[Guest]

I would like to thank you each for your answers.
It seems you love Jesus very much,and thats encouraging.

God Bless You,

Bud