The Narrow Path Ministries

There's no Israelology forum, so I figured I'd post this here. http://www.theopologetics.com/2012/05/2 ... eve-gregg/ Steve has agreed to debate Dr. Michael Brown on my show on the current status of the people and nation of Israel. Follow the link for details.

Great news! Really looking forward to hearing this one.

When is it?

darinhouston wrote:When is it?

July 10th. It will be recorded over a private, three-way Skype call; there won't be a live audience (primarily because I've yet to figure out how to stream live). I'll publish it that same day.

Sweet!!!

I can't wait for this discussion.

Sweet!!!

I can't wait for this discussion.



Amen!

I am really looking forward to this.

I really like Mike Brown's preachin', and I really like Steve's teachin'. I am sure the discussion will be very interesting.

TK

Should be a good discussion. I've been listening to Michael Brown recently. Hopefully there's time to cover the points brought up.

Does anyone on Michael Brown's side on this issue about Israel understand why Jeremiah 31:35-37 is quoted as proof God will keep (land) promises to ethnic Israel.

Jeremiah 31:
35 Thus says the Lord,
Who gives the sun for light by day
And the [p]fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The Lord of hosts is His name:

36 “ If this fixed order departs
From before Me,” declares the Lord,
“Then the offspring of Israel also will cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”

37 Thus says the Lord,
“ If the heavens above can be measured
And the foundations of the earth searched out below,
Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel
For all that they have done,” declares the Lord.

This promise seems to include the fact that Israel will not cease from being a nation. But Israel did cease from being a nation until 1948. If this is a promise to the physical seed of Abraham, Issac & Jacob, then it would seem to show that God did not keep His promise.

Continuing on in Jeremiah 31:

38 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when the city will be rebuilt for the Lord from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the Lord; it will not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever.”

These predictions/promises seem to be in reference to the Babylonian captivity and subsequent rebuilding of Jerusalem. These would be great promises to bring up if in fact Israel was restored to the land and the city rebuilt and never overthrown again. But Israel was overthrown again!

And I don't think it helps to try to see this specific promise in Jeremiah 31 as having fulfillment in the general fact that Jewish people are still around today since this is not what the text states. The text states they will not cease from being a nation.

Michael Brown quotes Jeremiah 31 many times to support his position on Israel. But how does it actually support his position???

These predictions/promises seem to be in reference to the Babylonian captivity and subsequent rebuilding of Jerusalem. These would be great promises to bring up if in fact Israel was restored to the land and the city rebuilt and never overthrown again. But Israel was overthrown again!

And I don't think it helps to try to see this specific promise in Jeremiah 31 as having fulfillment in the general fact that Jewish people are still around today since this is not what the text states. The text states they will not cease from being a nation.










I don't see it as you do that Israel will never be cease as a nation, rather i see it that Israel will never "permanently" cease from being a nation. It was God who judged Israel in 70AD not that they were "overthrown" and IMO it was God who kept his word and regathered Israel after the just period of judgment had ended. Yes there were human reasons that Israel was reborn in 1948 but i do not think without divine intervention Israel could have not only been created but survive the immediate attack from several Arab nations with standing armies.
Yes the immediate context was the return from Babylon, but in the bible there always is the immediate context and then the possibility that the promises or prophecies extend to future generations. Jesus audience were the people he spoke to yet his words extended far beyond his immediate context.