Theodicy

[dwilkins]

I agree that Boyd is a keen thinker. That's why I think he fairly easily wrote his first two books that dealt with theodicy. But, as he sat down to focus on the God of the Old Testament he hit a roadblock that he hasn't been able to get past yet. The idea that attributes of God reach the level of defining his existence comes from western theology. The EO church, which predates the western church, didn't go down that road and aren't troubled by this crisis. They see his attributes such as love, justice, etc. as being associated with God but not the essence of his being. I suggest that we take a look at their approach.

In the mean time, how do you think that Boyd explains passages such as Psalm 5,

Psa 5:1 For the end, a Psalm of David, concerning her that inherits. Hearken to my words, O Lord, attend to my cry.
Psa 5:2 Attend to the voice of my supplication, my King, and my God: for to thee, O Lord, will I pray.
Psa 5:3 In the morning thou shalt hear my voice: in the morning will I wait upon thee, and will look up.
Psa 5:4 For thou art not a god that desires iniquity; neither shall the worker of wickedness dwell with thee.
Psa 5:5 Neither shall the transgressors continue in thy sight: thou hatest, O Lord, all them that work iniquity.
Psa 5:6 Thou wilt destroy all that speak falsehood: the Lord abhors the bloody and deceitful man.
Psa 5:7 But I will enter into thine house in the multitude of thy mercy: I will worship in thy fear toward thy holy temple.
Psa 5:8 Lead me, O Lord, in thy righteousness because of mine enemies; make my way plain before thy face.
Psa 5:9 For there is no truth in their mouth; their heart is vain; their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit.
Psa 5:10 Judge them, O God; let them fail of their counsels: cast them out according to the abundance of their ungodliness; for they have provoked thee, O Lord.
Psa 5:11 But let all that trust on thee be glad in thee: they shall exult for ever, and thou shalt dwell among them; and all that love thy name shall rejoice in thee.
Psa 5:12 For thou, Lord, shalt bless the righteous: thou hast compassed us as with a shield of favour.

[psimmond]

I'm not sure how Boyd would explain Psalm 5, but I suspect he might say David's thoughts and feelings that are expressed in songs and poems weren't spoken by God. (That's what I would say )

[mattrose]

If the word 'love' in the Bible (especially when referring to God) tends to mean actively caring for (doing something for) the beloved (humans)... then perhaps the word 'hate' in the Bible (especially when referring to God) tends to mean actively working against (doing something against) the wicked (humans), rather than what we normally think of (an emotional or core-level hatred).

In other words, when the Lord sees wickedness... he works against it (not only for the sake of the innocent, but for the sake of the wicked). The last step in this process of working against it is withdrawal (so they experience the full consequences of their wickedness). Neither shall the transgressors continue in thy sight.

[mattrose]

I'm teaching on Habakkuk this Sunday, so I thought I'd test out these things a bit

Quick summary of Habakkuk...
In Habakkuk, the prophet first wants God to punish his fellow Jews for their wickedness. Then, when it is revealed that God WILL punish the people BUT will do it by raising up the Babylonians to attack, Habakkuk is frustrated (how can God use an even MORE wicked group to bring about justice?). God's second revelation alerts Habakkuk to the fact that Babylon, too, will ultimately be judged. Habakkuk learns to trust that God is busy working ultimate justice in the world.

Applying the Book of Habakkuk to this thread would have me ask if it has in mind God's DIRECT punishment of Judah or Babylon or if God's punishment of such entities had more to do with withdrawal or allowance of evil.

At least in this case, the answer appears to be the latter.

Judah is punished by Babylon. But Babylon is not a mere puppet in God's hands (otherwise, God would not hold them responsible). In practice, God saw a greedy, violent, idolatrous, and expanding group (Babylon) and decided not to restrain the fulfillment of their ambitions. He let Babylon be Babylon... and that included them over-taking Judah. He USED the wickedness of Babylon to punish His own people. He allowed their violence to overtake His people. His wrath did not come against the Jews directly in this case.

Babylon is punished by the natural moral order that God set up in the world (cause and effect sort of consequences). God assures Habakkuk that the Babylonians, too, will be judged. But what directly causes their demise? Chapter 2 tells us that the consequence of plundering people is that you eventually get plundered yourself. The consequence of building an empire by wicked means is that that wickedness turns around and bites you in the butt. Violence begets more violence. Abusing creation will result in the lack of resources. Creating false gods will result in a lack of divine resource. God doesn't need to lay a finger on Babylon to bring her down. She has built on a foolish foundation and is crumbling from the start.

In all of this, it is not inappropriate for the Scripture to speak AS IF God is directly causing these things for the very reason that He set up a world with a moral order and allows certain trajectories to reach their conclusions. So, for instance, 2:16 can refer to "the cup from the Lord's right hand" coming against Babylon. As it says in Romans 1, God's wrath is revealed PRECISELY WHEN He 'gives them over.'

[dwilkins]

Eze 38:1 The word of the LORD came to me:
Eze 38:2 "Son of man, set your face toward Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him
Eze 38:3 and say, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal.
Eze 38:4 And I will turn you about and put hooks into your jaws, and I will bring you out, and all your army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed in full armor, a great host, all of them with buckler and shield, wielding swords.
Eze 38:5 Persia, Cush, and Put are with them, all of them with shield and helmet;
Eze 38:6 Gomer and all his hordes; Beth-togarmah from the uttermost parts of the north with all his hordes--many peoples are with you.
Eze 38:7 "Be ready and keep ready, you and all your hosts that are assembled about you, and be a guard for them.
Eze 38:8 After many days you will be mustered. In the latter years you will go against the land that is restored from war, the land whose people were gathered from many peoples upon the mountains of Israel, which had been a continual waste. Its people were brought out from the peoples and now dwell securely, all of them.

Putting hooks in jaws and actively directing the actions of the invading country sounds more active than you seem to be allowing.

Doug

[psimmond]

Mattrose wrote: If the word 'love' in the Bible (especially when referring to God) tends to mean actively caring for (doing something for) the beloved (humans)... then perhaps the word 'hate' in the Bible (especially when referring to God) tends to mean actively working against (doing something against) the wicked (humans), rather than what we normally think of (an emotional or core-level hatred).

This wouldn't surprise me (although I do believe that God is emotional). I've heard others argue that God's wrath is likewise not the almost-out-of-control anger we associate with the word "wrath" but rather God's sure and just punishment against evildoers.

Mattrose wrote: Applying the Book of Habakkuk to this thread would have me ask if it has in mind God's DIRECT punishment of Judah or Babylon or if God's punishment of such entities had more to do with withdrawal or allowance of evil.

I think this will prove to be a frustrating endeavor because I think it's impossible for humans to determine where God is active and where he is passive. The providences of God orchestrate circumstances that influence our free-will decisions. I think when we talk about these matters, prudence demands us to humbly say things like "maybe," "possibly," "I think," or "I don't know."

[mattrose]

Oh, I certainly agree we need to be humble and non-dogmatic about our claims in this area. Well said.

The Habakkuk example, though, I don't think is super ambiguous. The text pretty much says that the direct cause of Israel's fall would be Babylon and that the direct cause of Babylon's fall would be cause and effect (the God ordained moral order).

It seems to me everyone in this thread agrees that God's normal way of dealing with wickedness involves the created realm. Something in the created realm ends up being the direct cause of the end of the wicked (whether it be natural disaster or an invading army). Where we disagree, it seems, is in exactly HOW God uses these naturalistic phenomena. Does he actively manipulate the created world or wicked empires? Or does he withdrawal his sustaining grace and/or protection?

In some ways that seems like the division between Calvinists and Arminians.

[psimmond]

It seems to me everyone in this thread agrees that God's normal way of dealing with wickedness involves the created realm. Something in the created realm ends up being the direct cause of the end of the wicked (whether it be natural disaster or an invading army). Where we disagree, it seems, is in exactly HOW God uses these naturalistic phenomena. Does he actively manipulate the created world or wicked empires? Or does he withdrawal his sustaining grace and/or protection?

I believe nothing can happen that has not either been willed or permitted by God. When God wills to do something he uses either natural or supernatural means. In the tenth Egyptian plague, I believe God used an angel (supernatural means) to carry out his judgment. In the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, I believe God used a volcano (natural means) to carry out his judgment. Because God has perfect foreknowledge, he created the world in such a way that a volcano would be in the vicinity of two very evil cities, and this volcano would erupt at a precise time and in a manner that would accomplish his purpose. (The same can be said of both the Assyrian and Babylonian Empires.)

Does this mean God was judging the people of Pompeii? Maybe. Maybe not. I don't know.
Does this mean God used the Spanish to execute his judgment on the Aztecs? Maybe. Maybe not. I don't know.

[Ian]

psimmond wrote:

I believe God used a volcano (natural means) to carry out his judgment. Because God has perfect foreknowledge, he created the world in such a way that a volcano would be in the vicinity of two very evil cities, and this volcano would erupt at a precise time and in a manner that would accomplish his purpose.

I`m intrigued (though sceptical). Are Sodom and Gomorrah known to have been in tectonically volatile places? I didn`t know this. Could you point me to your source for this information? Thanks

[Paidion]

I'm not sure how Boyd would explain Psalm 5, but I suspect he might say David's thoughts and feelings that are expressed in songs and poems weren't spoken by God. (That's what I would say )

Hey! I agree with Mr. Simmond on something.


In Psalm 139, David expresses his "complete hatred" toward the enemies of Yahweh. I wonder if he would have exercised that hatred if he had been instructed by Jesus.

Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD? And do I not loathe those who rise up against you? I hate them with complete hatred. I count them my enemies. (Psalm 139:21,21 ESV)

In Psalm 109, David curses his enemy, not only that he live a short life, and lose all his possessions, but that that his children might become beggars, but that his name be blotted out among his descendents, and that God might cut off the memory of his ancestors from the earth!

Appoint a wicked man against him; let an accuser stand at his right hand. When he is tried, let him come forth guilty; let his prayer be counted as sin! May his days be few; may another take his office! May his children be fatherless and his wife a widow! May his children wander about and beg, seeking food far from the ruins they inhabit! May the creditor seize all that he has; may strangers plunder the fruits of his toil! Let there be none to extend kindness to him, nor any to pity his fatherless children! May his posterity be cut off; may his name be blotted out in the second generation! May the iniquity of his fathers be remembered before the LORD, and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out! Let them be before the LORD continually,that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth! (Psalm 109:6-15, ESV)


Surely these are the thoughts and feelings of David. They are not God's words!

Jesus taught people to love their enemies and do good toward them, and then truly they would be sons of the Most High God, for He is kind even to ungrateful and evil people.

Luke 6:35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil.

Jesus revealed the Father as He REALLY is. You are not going to get the full picture from the Psalms of David.