Theodicy

[psimmond]

I wrote...

I believe God used a volcano (natural means) to carry out his judgment. Because God has perfect foreknowledge, he created the world in such a way that a volcano would be in the vicinity of two very evil cities, and this volcano would erupt at a precise time and in a manner that would accomplish his purpose.

and Ian responded with...

I`m intrigued (though sceptical). Are Sodom and Gomorrah known to have been in tectonically volatile places? I didn`t know this. Could you point me to your source for this information? Thanks

Since no one knows exactly where Sodom and Gomorrah were located, that's hard to answer. Apparently the area at the south end of the Dead Sea has a tectonic fissure, so some believe that this may once have been an elevated area, and they speculate that the destruction could have been caused by volcanic activity or earthquakes and resulting fires.

http://woodshole.er.usgs.gov/project-pa ... tonic.html

I don't know whether or not these cities were destroyed by volcanic activity, but the tectonic fissure and the description of sulfur and fire raining down leads me to suspect this; however, my point was just that God often uses natural means to bring about his judgment--consider the many plagues that Egypt suffered, or the conquest of Israel and Judah.

It wasn't a coincidence that the Assyrians decided to take out the northern kingdom, or that the Babylonians decided to take out the south. They were doing exactly what the prophets said would happen. God ordered the world in such a way that powerful empires would rise up and attack his people at a precise time in history when he knew that his people would be living in rebellion and in need of corrective punishment.

[dwilkins]

I find this statement incredibly bizzare:

"Appoint a wicked man against him; let an accuser stand at his right hand. When he is tried, let him come forth guilty; let his prayer be counted as sin! May his days be few; may another take his office! May his children be fatherless and his wife a widow! May his children wander about and beg, seeking food far from the ruins they inhabit! May the creditor seize all that he has; may strangers plunder the fruits of his toil! Let there be none to extend kindness to him, nor any to pity his fatherless children! May his posterity be cut off; may his name be blotted out in the second generation! May the iniquity of his fathers be remembered before the LORD, and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out! Let them be before the LORD continually,that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth! (Psalm 109:6-15, ESV)

Surely these are the thoughts and feelings of David. They are not God's words!"

For context, the rest of the Psalm is below,

Psa 109:1 For the end, a Psalm of David. O God, pass not over my praise in silence;
Psa 109:2 for the mouth of the sinner and the mouth of the crafty man have been opened against me: they have spoken against me with a crafty tongue.
Psa 109:3 And they have compassed me with words of hatred; and fought against me without a cause.
Psa 109:4 Instead of loving me, they falsely accused me: but I continued to pray.
Psa 109:5 And they rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.
Psa 109:6 Set thou a sinner against him; and let the devil stand at his right hand.
Psa 109:7 When he is judged, let him go forth condemned: and let his prayer become sin.
Psa 109:8 Let his days be few: and let another take his office of overseer.
Psa 109:9 Let his children be orphans, and his wife a widow.
Psa 109:10 Let his children wander without a dwelling-place, and beg: let them be cast out of their habitations.
Psa 109:11 Let his creditor exact all that belongs to him: and let strangers spoil his labours.
Psa 109:12 Let him have no helper; neither let there be any one to have compassion on his fatherless children.
Psa 109:13 Let his children be given up to utter destruction: in one generation let his name be blotted out.
Psa 109:14 Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered before the Lord; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out.
Psa 109:15 Let them be before the Lord continually; and let their memorial be blotted out from the earth.
Psa 109:16 Because he remembered not to shew mercy, but persecuted the needy and poor man, and that to slay him that was pricked in the heart.
Psa 109:17 He loved cursing also, and it shall come upon him; and he took not pleasure in blessing, so it shall be removed far from him.
Psa 109:18 Yea, he put on cursing as a garment, and it is come as water into his bowels, and as oil into his bones.
Psa 109:19 Let it be to him as a garment which he puts on, and as a girdle with which he girds himself continually.
Psa 109:20 This is the dealing of the Lord with those who falsely accuse me, and of them that speak evil against my soul.
Psa 109:21 But thou, O Lord, Lord, deal mercifully with me, for thy name's sake: for thy mercy is good.
Psa 109:22 Deliver me, for I am poor and needy; and my heart is troubled within me.
Psa 109:23 I am removed as a shadow in its going down: I am tossed up and down like locusts.
Psa 109:24 My knees are weakened through fasting, and my flesh is changed by reason of the want of oil.
Psa 109:25 I became also a reproach to them: when they saw me they shook their heads.
Psa 109:26 Help me, O Lord my God; and save me according to thy mercy.
Psa 109:27 And let them know that this is thy hand; and that thou, Lord, hast wrought it.
Psa 109:28 Let them curse, but thou shalt bless: let them that rise up against me be ashamed, but let thy servant rejoice.
Psa 109:29 Let those that falsely accuse me be clothed with shame, and let them cover themselves with their shame as with a mantle.
Psa 109:30 I will give thanks to the Lord abundantly with my mouth; and in the midst of many I will praise him.
Psa 109:31 For he stood on the right hand of the poor, to save me from them that persecute my soul.

By what hermeneutical principle do we declare parts of Psalms to not reflect the thinking of God? How do we apply that to other portions of the Psalms or scripture? Can I just declare anything I don't like to be the opinion of the writer, but not the opinion of God (2nd Thess. 1 comes to mind). Should we delete the portions where Christ's robe is drenched in blood from stomping his enemies guts out? Or maybe the Old Covenant civil code where it mandates the death penalty for various sins? I'd like to see a standard by which we can measure what parts to ignore. Thanks.

Doug

[Ian]

Presumably Doug this sermon by Greg Boyd would bring forth steams of incredulity from your ears:

http://whchurch.org/blog/6700/shadow-of-the-cross

I don`t know what to think.

I did note though that Greg sometimes used a cloth to wipe the sweat from his brow during this sermon - something I`ve hardly seen him do at other times. It must have felt like a form of "coming out" (theologically) for him. Hence his nervousness.

[psimmond]

Doug, do you believe that everything written in the Psalms reflects the thinking of God? If so, why?

[dwilkins]

I haven't had time to listen to Boyd yet, but I will try to get to it in the next few days.

With the caveat that hyperbole is something that we have a hard time digesting theologically I'd say that I assume that propositional statements from David and the other Psalm writers reflects the point of view of God. Obviously, not everything that happens in the OT is something God would endorse from the beginning. For instance, just because Jephthah sacrificed his daughter doesn't mean that it was something that God would have preferred to have happened. But, in the time of the judges, it's important to realize that every man did what was right in his own eyes (a phrase I take as an indictment of the era). But the Psalms are simpler in a way. They are stand alone song lyrics so that each tone carries enough of its own context to get a feel for the point without having to read several chapters or the whole book to understand the basic point. In those cases, when someone like David is praising God or asking for God to work I take it as a legitimate request.

Obviously, you have have an example of a Psalm in mind (which you assume I haven't considered) that you think will challenge me. You might be right.

Doug

[jriccitelli]

I’m glad Doug posted the whole Psalm so it could be read easily;
I have just read a number of passages in Scripture and this Psalm is more like Gods way of speaking than David’s. It reminds me of scripture where God says; ‘fine you want it this way, this is what you get, you love violence you will get violence. You rape and pillage you will get rape and pillage, you want a lying prophet you will get a lying prophet' (my condensed verse). This is a common theme in the prophetic books, and not much different than the effects of the curse when disobeying the Law.
(David is saying let them get what they like to do, that is what they like, maybe they will learn how it feels and consider)

David utters the curse, not on innocent people but on those doing the same thing, you will get what you sow David is saying, and this is just how God allows the wicked their reward for being wicked. It may even be the natural order of evil consequences for evil that Matt was talking about, but either way God punishes and yes it could be corrective. But without doubt it is Gods way and His Word.

Paidion, God often stepped in and caused punishing judgments, and I think sometimes final judgments, but it seems that ‘since the Crucifixion’ God has postponed all judgment until the Day of Judgment. ‘We’ are to love and forgive others because we are under the Law of Christ, and because we know that Justice and Vengeance belong to God, and God ‘will’ perform Justice, as God promised He would.
We are not The Judge, so we love and forgive, but God is the Judge and He will Judge, David knew this, and just like Deuteronomy says if you repent He will relent.

I think it would be wiser to ‘believe Gods Word, and repent, and God will have abundant compassion even forgiving ‘all’ our iniquities. What is so hard to believe about that?

[psimmond]

I wrote: Doug, do you believe that everything written in the Psalms reflects the thinking of God? If so, why?

Doug wrote: With the caveat that hyperbole is something that we have a hard time digesting theologically I'd say that I assume that propositional statements from David and the other Psalm writers reflects the point of view of God.

David was a man after God's heart but he never claimed that his thoughts were God's thoughts. In fact, we see in Psalms that David's thoughts are sometimes contrary to God's thoughts. Likewise, David's actions were sometimes contrary to God's teachings. Equating David's thoughts with God's thoughts is unrealistic because it demands too much from David and it pulls God down to our level.

When David uses graphic language to wish violence on his enemies, we understand this kind of language because we've all secretly done the same. But rather than wish evil on our enemies, God would have us take such evil thoughts captive and think instead on things that are pure, lovely, etc. Rather than say "Blessed is the man who destroys the children of our enemies by dashing them against the rocks," we should love our enemies, pray for them, and look for opportunities to do good to them.

I believe the Bible is "Perfect with Respect to Purpose." I don't think the purpose of the Psalms is to teach us the thoughts of God. (I think David would be surprised to learn that his readers have elevated his lyrics in this way.)

[psimmond]

jriccitelli wrote: God often stepped in and caused punishing judgments, and I think sometimes final judgments, but it seems that ‘since the Crucifixion’ God has postponed all judgment until the Day of Judgment.

jriccitelli, I don't know if I missed something in this thread, but why do you say that it seems "'since the Crucifixion’ God has postponed all judgment until the Day of Judgment"? We know the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD was God's judgment.

[jriccitelli]

Quote; ‘I think David would be surprised to learn that his readers have elevated his lyrics in this way’

I think David was surprised to find out his words were scripture. Surprised that the Messiah actually would come from his offspring, surprised that Jesus calls himself the root and the descendant of David, surprised that so many of his psalms contained messianic prophecy, but first…

I Guess I should have apostrophized ‘all’, in regards to postponing 'all' Judgement.
The judgment on Jerusalem was in 70AD – but - The Judgment on the whole world has not happened yet (I am not going to make a prediction, but doesn’t God usually also judge and punish the city from whom the destruction upon Jerusalem comes? Rome?) Rome may also have received her Judgment, or maybe that was just a warning, either way the whole ‘rest of the world’ will not escape judgment, will it?

I promised myself I would only read the ‘visiting iniquities’ thread this morning (and since this would be like opening the fourth seal, under the wrong thread), yet as this Psalm is already posted here, read 109 again – doesn’t this sound ‘alot’ like a prophecy against Jerusalem?
Too many parallels here, but are not these words so similar to the curses and judgments that God Himself (Jesus) speaks against the nations throughout ‘all’ the prophets?

And look at Psalm 109:1-5 again (Doug's post above), doesn’t this sound as much like it could be a lament of Christ as much as say Psalm 22?
Look at the Messianic Psalm 69 (below), do not verses 21-30 sound the same as 109?

8 I have become estranged from my brothers
And an alien to my mother’s sons.
9 For zeal for Your house has consumed me,
And the reproaches of those who reproach You have fallen on me …
21 They also gave me gall for my food
And for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.
22 May their table before them become a snare;
And when they are in peace, may it become a trap.
23 May their eyes grow dim so that they cannot see,
And make their loins shake continually.
24 Pour out Your indignation on them,
And may Your burning anger overtake them.
25 May their camp be desolate;
May none dwell in their tents.
26 For they have persecuted him whom You Yourself have smitten,
And they tell of the pain of those whom You have wounded.
27 Add iniquity to their iniquity,
And may they not come into Your righteousness.
28 May they be blotted out of the book of life
And may they not be recorded with the righteous.
29 But I am afflicted and in pain;
May Your salvation, O God, set me securely on high.
30 I will praise the name of God with song
And magnify Him with thanksgiving. (Psalm 69:8-9, 21-30)

Look at psalm 40, another psalm the Writer of Hebrews quotes from;
Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired; My ears You have opened;
Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required. 7 Then I said, “Behold, I come;
In the scroll of the book it is written of me. 8 I delight to do Your will, O my God;
Your Law is within my heart.” (Psalm 69:6-8, See Hebrews 10:6-7)

Next the the Psalmist continues;

Be pleased, O LORD, to deliver me;
Make haste, O LORD, to help me.
(Note Rev,16:6, and 19:3, they deserve it)
14Let those be ashamed and humiliated together
Who seek my life to destroy it;
Let those be turned back and dishonored
Who delight in my hurt.
15Let those be appalled because of their shame
Who say to me, “Aha, aha!” (Psalm 69:13-15)

I think we are putting our unfamiliarity with human evil and what is really in the hearts of others over what God knows is in man. I said ‘we’ are to forgive because we have been forgiven, and we trust God will justly judge the evil in man, eventually. God would be unjust to not demand justice or perform justice, it on the unrepentant and Godless. David is expressing Gods thoughts on sinners, just as God does from Genesis thru Malachi (Rev.) Note verse 6 in Rev.16 below;

Then the third angel poured out his bowl into the rivers and the springs of waters; and they became blood. 5And I heard the angel of the waters saying, “Righteous are You, who are and who were, O Holy One, because You judged these things; 6for they poured out the blood of saints and prophets, and You have given them blood to drink. They deserve it.” 7And I heard the altar saying, “Yes, O Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments.”
8The fourth angel poured out his bowl upon the sun, and it was given to it to scorch men with fire. 9Men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory.

I don’t know who others may think is in charge here of the Judgments or who’s Judgments they are, but I think it says; … They deserve it.” 7And I heard the altar saying, “Yes, O Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments”. I am sorry, that's what it says, I can't deny the words because i feel sorry for the wicked, or make excuses for the language, that is what it says - they deserve it, 'maybe' they do (!?).

Doesn’t Psalm 109 sound like the same One who is speaking (below) through Malachi, and so many other Prophets?

“And now this commandment is for you, O priests. 2“If you do not listen, and if you do not take it to heart to give honor to My name,” says the LORD of hosts, “then I will send the curse upon you and I will curse your blessings; and indeed, I have cursed them already, because you are not taking it to heart. 3“Behold, I am going to rebuke your offspring, and I will spread refuse on your faces, the refuse of your feasts; and you will be taken away with it... 6“True instruction was in his mouth and unrighteousness was not found on his lips; he walked with Me in peace and uprightness, and he turned many back from iniquity. (Malachi 2:1-6)

If you didn’t have the page number it would be hard to tell if this chapter in Malachi wasn’t a continuation of psalm 109!

[Paidion]

We know the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD was God's judgment.

How do we know that?