Christianity is not just another religion propagating an ideology. Christianity is not just another religion remembering the teaching of its founder. Christianity is not just another religion reiterating the propositional tenets of its founder's teaching, and calling such "truth." Christianity is not just another religion demanding conformity to a particular "belief-system" or data-base of doctrine.
The essence of Christianity is Jesus Christ. All of Christianity is inherent in Jesus, His Person and His continuing activity. Christianity functions only by the dynamic of the risen and living Lord Jesus. Christianity is the function of the Spirit of Christ as He continues to live in Christians.
It is a sad state of affairs in what is passed off as "Christian religion" today. There is almost total failure to discern that the essence of Christianity is Jesus Christ Himself. The essence of Christianity is not a standardized belief-system. The essence of Christianity is not a consensus of doctrine. The essence of Christianity is not commonality of creeds. Jesus Christ is the essence of Christianity.
Where did "Christian religion" go off track into thinking that consenting to, confessing and conforming to doctrinal data was what Christianity was all about? When did this "Christian religion" develop the idea that Christianity is the acceptance of a correct and orthodox belief-system?
christianity is Christ
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_Aussie Pentecostal
- Posts: 30
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christianity is Christ
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Christianity is not a belief system, but a living dynamic of Christ
Various people - and sects - have been doing that for the past 2000 years. Why is this new to you? And how exactly is pointing it out supposed to help matters?
Damon
Damon
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Hi Aussie (John),
I doubt if anyone here disagrees with your assessment, as you stated it. I have some problems with the way you mean it (which I have had occasion to read in your other posts).
You say that Christianity isn't "just another religion propagating an ideology. Christianity is not just another religion remembering the teaching of its founder... " I couldn't agree more! However, I would insist on the inclusion of the word "just" in each of these statements, whereas, you sometimes have written as though Christianity can exist while rejecting the teachings of the Founder. Christianity isn't just the sum total of Jesus' teaching--it is far more, but it is not less. I have the impression that you think one can be a Christian while neglecting Jesus' teaching, or at least the teaching of the apostles that He appointed to speak on his behalf. My question would be, how can you have the Lord and not think it essential to keep the Lord's commands?
If you are really curious about how the church became the creedal thing that it has become (and you were not simply asking rhetorically), I have a series on church history at my website on mp3 files. One of my lectures there examines how this decline in the church occurred.
Blessings!
I doubt if anyone here disagrees with your assessment, as you stated it. I have some problems with the way you mean it (which I have had occasion to read in your other posts).
You say that Christianity isn't "just another religion propagating an ideology. Christianity is not just another religion remembering the teaching of its founder... " I couldn't agree more! However, I would insist on the inclusion of the word "just" in each of these statements, whereas, you sometimes have written as though Christianity can exist while rejecting the teachings of the Founder. Christianity isn't just the sum total of Jesus' teaching--it is far more, but it is not less. I have the impression that you think one can be a Christian while neglecting Jesus' teaching, or at least the teaching of the apostles that He appointed to speak on his behalf. My question would be, how can you have the Lord and not think it essential to keep the Lord's commands?
If you are really curious about how the church became the creedal thing that it has become (and you were not simply asking rhetorically), I have a series on church history at my website on mp3 files. One of my lectures there examines how this decline in the church occurred.
Blessings!
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
Hi Steve.
I think what John was getting at is that a lot of sects are focusing more on doctrine than on Christ Himself, which is true. The problem I see is in how John was approaching this issue. First of all, he was being too general. Because he didn't give specific examples of how this happens, few, if any, of the people who might read what he wrote will actually benefit from reading it. Secondly, Christ is all about being merciful to "little ones." Technically speaking, those who focus more on doctrine than on Christ Himself are "little ones." I really didn't get the impression that John was coming from mercy, though.
Damon
I think what John was getting at is that a lot of sects are focusing more on doctrine than on Christ Himself, which is true. The problem I see is in how John was approaching this issue. First of all, he was being too general. Because he didn't give specific examples of how this happens, few, if any, of the people who might read what he wrote will actually benefit from reading it. Secondly, Christ is all about being merciful to "little ones." Technically speaking, those who focus more on doctrine than on Christ Himself are "little ones." I really didn't get the impression that John was coming from mercy, though.
Damon
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Damon,
John and I are acquainted. In 1984, he and several other Australians attended our school in Oregon, and he later married another of the Australian students. We love these students a great deal, and have always thought highly of them. After returning to Australia, John became a pastor there, and we lost touch with each other for years. Only recently have we been back in touch through email and this forum. In the twenty years we were out of touch, we have both been through many changes.
If you wish to see some of his other posts, upon which I based my comments above, they can be found under the thread called "Wive's submission to husbands" in the "Marriage/Divorce" category. You might find yourself in sympathy with his position, for all I know, but you will see why I said he doesn't seem to think that geniuine Christianity involves obedience to the commands of Christ or the apostles. He readily calls such obedience "legalism."
Like everyone else, he is welcome to post here and to disagree with the majority, but he gets kind of offended when his views are criticised. A thin-skinned attitude is not very much like the Christ of Christianity, and does not work out well on a forum such as this, where every post is subject to peer review.
John and I are acquainted. In 1984, he and several other Australians attended our school in Oregon, and he later married another of the Australian students. We love these students a great deal, and have always thought highly of them. After returning to Australia, John became a pastor there, and we lost touch with each other for years. Only recently have we been back in touch through email and this forum. In the twenty years we were out of touch, we have both been through many changes.
If you wish to see some of his other posts, upon which I based my comments above, they can be found under the thread called "Wive's submission to husbands" in the "Marriage/Divorce" category. You might find yourself in sympathy with his position, for all I know, but you will see why I said he doesn't seem to think that geniuine Christianity involves obedience to the commands of Christ or the apostles. He readily calls such obedience "legalism."
Like everyone else, he is welcome to post here and to disagree with the majority, but he gets kind of offended when his views are criticised. A thin-skinned attitude is not very much like the Christ of Christianity, and does not work out well on a forum such as this, where every post is subject to peer review.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
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_Aussie Pentecostal
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 6:30 pm
Steve and All
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Damon said
maybe your impression is wrong, although I do admit I do get angry at injustice, religious racism, legalism and suppression of Gods creation human and other wise.
The point I have been attempting to formulate is far too many who have lived their lives to conformity to peer groups pressures to take drugs, have sex, listen to certain music, dress a certain way, attend certain places etc . Then after conversion to a life in Christ the Church pressures us to conform. Dress the way we dress, listen to our music, read our books, talk our lingo go where we go. Paul said “Do not be conformed but be transformed by the renewing of our minds”
We (the Church) have given people formulas, principles, methods and not taught them that Life is not in conforming to the world or to belief systems. Christ is Life, Christ is Love, He does not have love, He is Love, He does not have truth He is Truth.
The natural tendency of man is to attempt to "slant" explanations and interpretations to his own way of thinking, to promote the presuppositions he has espoused and the preferences that serve his own purposes. The self-orientation of man creeps into his theological considerations. Christians today need to be discerning so they can recognize the man-made "grids" of interpretation that color and taint and bias so much of Christian instruction today. Surely we do not want to be blind followers who have failed to develop our own "reasoning about God" in accord with inspired Scripture? Paul prayed for the Philippians Christians that their "love might abound more and more in real knowledge and all discernment, so that they might approve the things that are excellent..." (Phil. 2:9,10). Such would be my prayer for Christians today.
The world of sinful mankind does not need another system; they need the Savior, Jesus Christ. The solution to the problems of fallen mankind are not in the compilation of logical truths, but in the receiving of the One who is the Living Truth (John 14:6) Jesus Christ. Our "reasoning about God," our theology, should be Christ centered.
As Christian peoples in different places and at different times have different "reasonings," it is important to say again that theological understanding should not be a "test of fellowship" among Christian peoples Those who have received the risen and living Lord Jesus Christ by faith can and must remain one in the "unity of love" despite different theological reasonings. This can be accomplished by allowing Jesus Christ to be the center of our thinking, our theology and our lives.
John
Ps Yes I do strongly believe in the Creeds of the Church a great deal more then you may appreciate Steve, in the last 5 or so years I been in dialogue with some Catholic brothers and sisters. The Lord has reveled some wonderful truths to me.
Is this projection Steve?“but he gets kind of offended when his views are criticized”
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How is your attitudes Steve? maybe you should look for any planks or beams laying around your yard“A thin-skinned attitude is not very much like the Christ of Christianity”
Damon said
Yes Damon point taken; I did not give examples and shall endeavor to do so“I think what John was getting at is that a lot of sects are focusing more on doctrine than on Christ Himself, which is true. The problem I see is in how John was approaching this issue. First of all, he was being too general. Because he didn't give specific examples of how this happens, few, if any, of the people who might read what he wrote will actually benefit from reading it. Secondly, Christ is all about being merciful to "little ones." Technically speaking, those who focus more on doctrine than on Christ Himself are "little ones."
”“I really didn't get the impression that John was coming from mercy, though
maybe your impression is wrong, although I do admit I do get angry at injustice, religious racism, legalism and suppression of Gods creation human and other wise.
The point I have been attempting to formulate is far too many who have lived their lives to conformity to peer groups pressures to take drugs, have sex, listen to certain music, dress a certain way, attend certain places etc . Then after conversion to a life in Christ the Church pressures us to conform. Dress the way we dress, listen to our music, read our books, talk our lingo go where we go. Paul said “Do not be conformed but be transformed by the renewing of our minds”
We (the Church) have given people formulas, principles, methods and not taught them that Life is not in conforming to the world or to belief systems. Christ is Life, Christ is Love, He does not have love, He is Love, He does not have truth He is Truth.
The natural tendency of man is to attempt to "slant" explanations and interpretations to his own way of thinking, to promote the presuppositions he has espoused and the preferences that serve his own purposes. The self-orientation of man creeps into his theological considerations. Christians today need to be discerning so they can recognize the man-made "grids" of interpretation that color and taint and bias so much of Christian instruction today. Surely we do not want to be blind followers who have failed to develop our own "reasoning about God" in accord with inspired Scripture? Paul prayed for the Philippians Christians that their "love might abound more and more in real knowledge and all discernment, so that they might approve the things that are excellent..." (Phil. 2:9,10). Such would be my prayer for Christians today.
The world of sinful mankind does not need another system; they need the Savior, Jesus Christ. The solution to the problems of fallen mankind are not in the compilation of logical truths, but in the receiving of the One who is the Living Truth (John 14:6) Jesus Christ. Our "reasoning about God," our theology, should be Christ centered.
As Christian peoples in different places and at different times have different "reasonings," it is important to say again that theological understanding should not be a "test of fellowship" among Christian peoples Those who have received the risen and living Lord Jesus Christ by faith can and must remain one in the "unity of love" despite different theological reasonings. This can be accomplished by allowing Jesus Christ to be the center of our thinking, our theology and our lives.
"The Bible is the written word of God, and because it is written it is confined and limited by the necessities of ink and paper and leather. The Voice of God, however, is alive and free as the sovereign God is free. 'The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.' The life is in the speaking words. God's word in the Bible can have power only because it corresponds to God's Word in the universe. It is the present Voice which makes the written word powerful. Otherwise it would lie locked in slumber within the covers of a book." (A. W. Tozer,)
Every Blessing"It is Christ Himself, not the Bible, who is the true word of God. The Bible, read in the right spirit, and with the guidance of good teachers, will bring us to Him." (C.S. Lewis)
John
Ps Yes I do strongly believe in the Creeds of the Church a great deal more then you may appreciate Steve, in the last 5 or so years I been in dialogue with some Catholic brothers and sisters. The Lord has reveled some wonderful truths to me.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Christianity is not a belief system, but a living dynamic of Christ
Hi John.
I just wanted to focus on one thing that you mentioned:
"The natural tendency of man is to attempt to 'slant' explanations and interpretations to his own way of thinking, to promote the presuppositions he has espoused and the preferences that serve his own purposes. The self-orientation of man creeps into his theological considerations."
While this is true, it kind of overgeneralizes the situation and misses a lot of important details.
First of all, God did establish an authority structure in the Church from the very beginning. Moreover, He expressly did this to avoid doctrinal problems. (Eph. 4:11-16) The fact that we have doctrinal problems today actually stems from the fact that we ourselves have chosen to reject Godly authority over us to one degree or another.
Now, mind you, I'm not a Catholic and I don't intend to become one any time soon. I'm not coming from that perspective. However, I do believe that Jesus was indeed giving Peter authority when He made the famous statement in Matthew 16:18-19. Although the Body of Christ has since become fragmented and divided against itself (which is a horrible situation; see Mat. 12:25) and therefore lacks the position of authority that it once had, it wasn't intended to be that way from the beginning.
What you're ultimately attempting to address is the fact that we need to deal with the Body of Christ in its divided and fragmented state. There simply is no perfect solution to this problem at this time! But we each can do the best that we can do. So, we'll end up with creeds and doctrines that don't always accurately reflect God or God's will for us. That's just the way it is for now.
I understand that you want people to look beyond the creeds and doctrines to see Christ, but understand that we ourselves can't always see what we need to see to be perfectly in alignment with the will of God. (Nor could we live up to it, even if we did see it!) That's why God ordained prophets of old and gave them authority! See, the Law was intended to guide Israel in the way in which it should live, and the prophets were ordained to teach the people how to apply the Law. In the first century, most of the local congregations were led by prophets, according to the Didache. Sadly, the prophetic gift has largely ceased for the time being, just as it did during the intertestamental period from roughly 450 BC until Jesus' ministry. Therefore, while we can urge one another to look to Christ, none of us are perfectly able to do that.
I hope we can at least agree on that much.
Damon
I just wanted to focus on one thing that you mentioned:
"The natural tendency of man is to attempt to 'slant' explanations and interpretations to his own way of thinking, to promote the presuppositions he has espoused and the preferences that serve his own purposes. The self-orientation of man creeps into his theological considerations."
While this is true, it kind of overgeneralizes the situation and misses a lot of important details.
First of all, God did establish an authority structure in the Church from the very beginning. Moreover, He expressly did this to avoid doctrinal problems. (Eph. 4:11-16) The fact that we have doctrinal problems today actually stems from the fact that we ourselves have chosen to reject Godly authority over us to one degree or another.
Now, mind you, I'm not a Catholic and I don't intend to become one any time soon. I'm not coming from that perspective. However, I do believe that Jesus was indeed giving Peter authority when He made the famous statement in Matthew 16:18-19. Although the Body of Christ has since become fragmented and divided against itself (which is a horrible situation; see Mat. 12:25) and therefore lacks the position of authority that it once had, it wasn't intended to be that way from the beginning.
What you're ultimately attempting to address is the fact that we need to deal with the Body of Christ in its divided and fragmented state. There simply is no perfect solution to this problem at this time! But we each can do the best that we can do. So, we'll end up with creeds and doctrines that don't always accurately reflect God or God's will for us. That's just the way it is for now.
I understand that you want people to look beyond the creeds and doctrines to see Christ, but understand that we ourselves can't always see what we need to see to be perfectly in alignment with the will of God. (Nor could we live up to it, even if we did see it!) That's why God ordained prophets of old and gave them authority! See, the Law was intended to guide Israel in the way in which it should live, and the prophets were ordained to teach the people how to apply the Law. In the first century, most of the local congregations were led by prophets, according to the Didache. Sadly, the prophetic gift has largely ceased for the time being, just as it did during the intertestamental period from roughly 450 BC until Jesus' ministry. Therefore, while we can urge one another to look to Christ, none of us are perfectly able to do that.
I hope we can at least agree on that much.
Damon
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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