"Chance" and Sovereignty

[BlackUmbrella]

I have noticed that occasionally lots are used to make decisions in the Bible (perhaps exclusively prior to Pentecost, which would be noteworthy). The Bible apparently does not categorize the casting of lots as "divination".

Additionally, Proverbs 16 says, "The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord."

So I am wondering if, after having applied every manner of biblical principle and discernment and wise counsel to a matter, when faced with a choice between two seemingly equivalent options, if an instrument of what might be called "chance" (flip of a coin, roll of the dice) might be reasonably employed to allow God to "decide".

This is more an exploration of the logical outcome/result of our beliefs, as I do not intend to begin governing my life according to dice. But I am intrigued by the notion that, if God is sovereign even to the casting of lots, and if any moral/spiritual consideration of a decision is beyond our ability to discern from revealed truth (The Word, or the counsel of godly believers), and if there is ultimately no such thing as chance, then the will of God might be revealed in this way.

Any replies or thoughts are welcome.

[Paidion]

Well, I don't recommend doing that as a general practice in attempting to discern God's will, but I think that occasionally we can be led to use that method. But I think we should make it "hard" for God to tell us his will. For example a "prophet" appeared in a small town our area, and spoke from a trailer. When no one responded, he cursed the town. There was a woman with him (who was not his wife), and also another man who seemed to be a wimp. The woman came out and started saying that she could tell people all about their life. I was a young man at the time and was on a motorcycle, wearing a leather jacket. So I walked up to her and said, "Okay, tell me all the things you can discern about me." She said a number of things, but none of them were correct. Then she invited me into the trailer and began to prophesy over me. I found her prophecy rather uplifting. She wanted me to join them in their ministry. But the "prophet" then told me that none of the things she had prophesied would happen unless I was "baptized in the Spirit." He also told me he possessed all those powers that are described in Mark 16:16-18. When I questioned him closely about that, he became defensive and placed a curse on me. I got up and left the trailer. The woman followed me out and apologized for the behaviour of the man.

At home, I prayed and asked the Lord to show me whether or not this man was a false prophet. I was about to toss 10 coins, but first I said to the Lord, if that man is a true prophet let ALL of the coins turn up heads. If he is a false prophet, let ALL of the coins turn up tails. But if any other combination turns up, I will understand it to mean that I shouldn't have used this method to find out. The probability of such a toss being some other combination is 1022 out of 1024 (over 99.8%). Well, I tossed the coins and every one of them came up tails. So this convinced me that this man was a false prophet. The next morning I went back to the town to warn the woman, but they had already left.

On just one other occasion, I set a "fleece" before the Lord, and He answered. That one was even more amazing. I'll relate it if you are interested.

[BlackUmbrella]

Thank you for the reply, and I find that extremely interesting. You certainly made it difficult to come away with a false impression by the manner of your appeal to the Lord. I would absolutely love to hear about the other occasion.

In the case of your coin toss, I found it intriguing that you were a young man. It seems to be a common experience among Christians that God meets us in rather miraculous and unorthodox ways when we are younger in our faith, but makes us work harder for deeper answers as we mature.

[morbo3000]

God's will is not found in the decision to take a left turn instead of a right in a life decision. That kind of thinking will drive you mad.

His will is how you live your life in whatever situation you are in after turning left.

[BlackUmbrella]

God's will is not found in the decision to take a left turn instead of a right in a life decision. That kind of thinking will drive you mad.

His will is how you live your life in whatever situation you are in after turning left.

Yes, I completely understand and agree. This is truly not a question of whether or not such a course of action is necessary, and I absolutely believe God gives us legitimate choices (as he did with Adam when he asked them to name the animals) and that his will for us is not a secret to be figured out. I don't believe the Christian life is a tightrope walk.

This was really more of an intellectual exercise, which might be stated like this:
- If we see biblical examples of godly people using lots to seek and obtain clear decisions from God, and
- If we believe the Bible when it says every turn of the die is from the Lord, and
- If God cannot lie
Then can it be said that the result of a cast of a die can be anything other than a revealing of the will of the Lord? And if we are truly at a crossroads in which we are unable to discern a moral reason to choose but feel an answer from the Lord would be helpful, can such an action be taken? Not as a way to "force" God to answer, or to "corner" God, but to say, "Have Your way, Lord."

[Singalphile]

Then can it be said that the result of a cast of a die can be anything other than a revealing of the will of the Lord? And if we are truly at a crossroads in which we are unable to discern a moral reason to choose but feel an answer from the Lord would be helpful, can such an action be taken? Not as a way to "force" God to answer, or to "corner" God, but to say, "Have Your way, Lord."

We can't say anything against it, anyway. Obviously, we wouldn't flip a coin to decide whether or not to sin. But when the outcomes seem equally acceptable to us and and when all involved are agreed, then a "random" decision can be a way to let God intervene (or not) as He chooses. Such acts (e.g., a coin toss) are considered fair by most people anyway.

[Ian]

I'll relate it if you are interested.

Yes, interested Paidion.

[Paidion]

Okay Ian, and anyone else who might be interested, I will relate the second incident. I know of only two such incidents in my life of 78 years in which I am fully assured that God gave me a specific answer. The first incident, I already related: the tossing of the ten coins. For some reason, both incidents involve the detecting of false prophets. Perhaps God has a special concern that his people should be able to identify false prophets.

The venue of the second incident was a Christian summer camp (usually in August) in which the presence and power of God seemed evident to many people. Several hundred people gathered there—the two main speakers being C. and A. At one camp C. arranged to bring in a prophet to minister to us.

Now the Christian assembly near our home, where we fellowship, is part of a circle of fellowship over which there are general overseers. These overseers occasionally lay hands on brothers and sisters in the assemblies, and prophesy over them concerning their ministries and imparting spiritual gifts to them. (1 Tim 4:14). I had received my prophecy a few years prior to attending the summer camp to which I referred above.

At the summer camp, there was a meeting announced where this prophet brought in by C. was to prophesy over people. I was considering going, but I thought I heard God speak to my heart the words, "You have received your prophecy," and so I didn't attend the meeting. But I wanted to know whether this man was a true prophet of God or a false one. There were many people walking the grounds, and so I closed my eyes and prayed, "Lord if this man is a false prophet, let the next person I see, have blue jeans and a white top. Otherwise, let is be some other colour combination." I opened my eyes and right in front of me was a woman with blue jeans and a white sweater. Then I thought to myself, "That's a very common combination. That may have been an accident. It may not have been the Lord's doing." So I closed my eyes again, and prayed, "Lord show me one more time! If that man is a false prophet, let the next person I see when I open my eyes have white jeans and a blue top." To my amazement, I opened my eyes and a woman was walking by who had white jeans and a blue top. I thought, "This has to be the Lord! That is a rather unusual combination." I felt certain that the man was a false prophet. I told some of the other men what had happened, and they thought I should tell C. But I was too chicken to do so.

That evening, a "fireside" meeting was announced—to be held in the chapel. This chapel was a rustic, log building with a prominent fireplace. I attended. Much to my surprise, the "prophet" was there, and he was "prophesying" over people again. There were probably about 30 people in the room. But I felt sure I hadn't disobeyed the Lord in attending, since He hadn't indicated anything to me. But skeptical as I was, I wanted further confirmation that the man was a false prophet. So I prayed, "If that man is a true prophet, let him next prophesy over JS (a friend of mine), but if he is a false prophet, let him prophesy over that man. (I indicated in my heart a man I picked at random, that I didn't know). And if I shouldn't have asked you to do this, Lord, let him prophesy over someone else." Well... he prophesied over that man. So I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that this man was a false prophet. The next morning the man proved it. He prophesied over C. himself. His words were, "Your name will become a household word in America!" It was a "prophecy" that could well foster pride in C. So I immediately prayed that God would deliver C. from any pride that might arise in him.

A few months later, I emailed C. and related to him my experiences concerning the "prophet." He never replied. I then felt that I had failed in not telling him right away at the camp as the other Christian brothers advised me.

[Ian]

Did you ever find out about what C`s friend went on to do?
ie did subsequent events further confirm things?

[dwight92070]

Paidon

Why did you put out fleeces? I thought Jesus told us we would know false prophets by their fruits, not by putting out multiple fleeces. Also, Steve has clearly taught us that the fruits mentioned there refer to their words and their teaching, not necessarily the fruit of the Spirit.

Dwight