Pacifism

[dwight92070]

For those of you who are pacifists, did John the Baptist neglect to tell the soldiers that came to him, that they had to lay down their swords and get out of the military? They repented and were baptized by John. What about the centurion who Jesus said had great faith? Did Jesus forget to tell him that he too, must now forsake his career as a military commander?

What about Christain policeman? Or is that an oxymoron?

What about Christians who are in government positions of authority, such as governors, or judges? Paul said that these authorities do not "bear the sword for nothing"? There will be times when they must sentence someone to death for justice to be done.

I don't see where scripture ever supports pacifism.

Jesus" teachings about loving your enemies must be understood in the right context. Obviously, they are meant to apply to a personal level vs. a national level. Also Jesus never said that a man should not practice self defense, when his life is threatened. Who struck down Ananias and Saphira? Did God do that?

[Paidion]

For those of you who are pacifists, did John the Baptist neglect to tell the soldiers that came to him, that they had to lay down their swords and get out of the military? They repented and were baptized by John. What about the centurion who Jesus said had great faith? Did Jesus forget to tell him that he too, must now forsake his career as a military commander?

I think I understand your position fully. I used to think as you do. I used to ask a man who believed in non-resistance ("Do not resist evil," Jesus said) what he would do if someone was assaulting his wife. He replied, "I don't know what I would do, but I know what I should do." I learned that non-resistance doesn't mean doing nothing, but it does mean not fighting with or killing the aggressor.

In Jesus' instructions not to resist evil, but to pray for enemies and do good to them, I doubt that He was advocating a double standard, one for an individual, and another for governments. If Jesus approved of fighting "just wars" then He would have behaved as the Jews expected the Messiah to behave, and deliver them from Roman oppression. But He didn't. Jesus said, ""My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here." Jesus did not command his servants to fight against Rome, because his Kingdom was the Kingdom of God. Since we disciples of Christ are also part of the Kingdom of God and not a worldly kingdom, we should do the same, and not fight a worldly war.

As for John the Baptist not telling the soldier to lay down their swords, and Jesus not telling the centurions to forsake his military career, the answer lies in the fact that that was not the central purpose of John and Jesus. One could compare this to Paul writing to Philemon. He didn't tell Philemon to free his slave Onesimus. Rather he indicated in his letter to him that Onesimus would serve him better than ever, now that he had become a Christian. But do we conclude from that the slavery is okay? A lot of Christians justified slavery in United States in precisely this way. They gave all the examples of slavery recorded in the Bible, in which it was not condemned. Paul did suggest that a Christian slave should gain his freedom if the opportunity presented itself, but not to strive for it or worry about it:

Were you a slave when called? Do not be concerned about it. But if you can gain your freedom, avail yourself of the opportunity. (1 Corinthians 7:21)

What about Christain policeman? Or is that an oxymoron?

Christians have owned slaves; Christians have become police officers. Christians have fought in wars. We can discuss the morality of these things with such Christians. Jesus and the early Christians did not to take steps to force such Christians to do the right thing. They hoped that they would see it for themselves.

What about Christians who are in government positions of authority, such as governors, or judges? Paul said that these authorities do not "bear the sword for nothing"?

Yes, he did. In the same context, he said, " For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad." But what do we do if the rulers are not a terror to bad conduct, but to good? That's what Brother Richard Wurmbrand said about the authorities in Romania where he was imprisoned and tortured for 14 years. Therefore he didn't regard them as authorities established by God.

Peter and John didn't regard the Jewish council in Jerusalem as God's authority. The council ordered them not to speak or teach any more in the name of Jesus.

But Peter and John answered them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, you must judge, for we cannot but speak of what we have seen and heard.” (Acts 4:19, 20)

We need to be cautious with Paul's words, "The authorities that be are ordained of God". If that were universally true, you shouldn't call a curse on Mr. Obama, for he would be one of the authorities ordained by God. But clearly that statement is nor universally true, or we would have to include Hitler and Stalin as authorities ordained by God. Christians can avoid doing wrong in positions of government by not taking such positions.

There will be times when they must sentence someone to death for justice to be done.

I don't see where scripture ever supports pacifism.

I don't either. Wikipedia defines "pacifism" as "opposition to war, militarism or violence." The early Christian took no action to oppose war, militarism or violence, but they did take action to assist the victims of such, and also to love their enemies and do good to them.

Jesus teachings about loving your enemies must be understood in the right context.

These teachings should be understood in every context. Jesus never indicated otherwise.

Obviously, they are meant to apply to a personal level vs. a national level.

That is not at all obvious.

Also Jesus never said that a man should not practice self defense, when his life is threatened.

He didn't say that a man should not practise self-defense, period. Defending oneself is not in the same category as killing the aggressor.

Who struck down Ananias and Saphira? Did God do that?

The idea that anyone struck them down is mere speculation. In the book of Acts, Luke did not say that they were struck down. He said that Ananias died when he learned that Peter knew what he did. Perhaps he recognized that God had revealed the truth to Peter, and he died out of fear. Sapphira, too, when she was told, "The feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out,” she realized that the jig was up, and probably died from fear also. Indeed, the text says that "Great fear came upon the whole church and upon all who heard of these things." Fear can come upon people when they think they have covered something up, and that no one could possibly know, and then God reveals it.

[thrombomodulin]

In Jesus' instructions not to resist evil, but to pray for enemies and do good to them, I doubt that He was advocating a double standard, one for an individual, and another for governments. ... Christians have become police officers. Christians have fought in wars. We can discuss the morality of these things with such Christians. Jesus and the early Christians did not to take steps to force such Christians to do the right thing. They hoped that they would see it for themselves.

Paidion,

In the quoted above you seem to be affirming a basis from which it could be concluded that Christians should not support any State at all (e.g. as police officers or office holders). Based on our previous conversations, I don't think this is your view. I think the discussion of the morality of these things is an interesting topic. What is your view on whether Christians should hold a political office or be a police officer?

Thanks
Pete

[Paidion]

I now lean toward the view that Christians shouldn't take these positions, in order to be able to fulfill the law of Christ as He expressed it in Matt 5, 6, and 7. I am not saying that those who do become police officers or hold a political position are doing wrong intrinsically in taking those positions—just that they are likely to encounter internal conflict in attempting to fulfill the expectations of that office and at the same time carry out the laws of Christ. There seems to be a clear line of demarcation between the "kingdoms of the world" and "the Kingdom of God." These two kingdoms are frequently in conflict. Jesus said that no one cannot serve two masters.

[dwight92070]

Okay, I'll try again.

Paidon,

You never told us what you would do if your wife was being assaulted. You told us what you would not do. Now could you please tell us what you would do, assuming you respond in a godly manner and according to the way you understand scripture?

Dwight

[morbo3000]

...did John the Baptist neglect to tell the soldiers that came to him, that they had to lay down their swords and get out of the military?

He might have. We don't know. The author of the gospels didn't discuss it.

John's baptism was for repentance, not discipleship. The Jewish people believed the Roman occupation was sign of God's judgment on them for their rebelliousness against Him in idol worship, and other things. Baptism was a symbol of their repentance, for their sins. Not into the new covenant. Or into the new ethic of Jesus.

What about the centurion who Jesus said had great faith? Did Jesus forget to tell him that he too, must now forsake his career as a military commander?

We don't know. He might have. The only part of that story we have is what the gospel tells us. There would be no need for the author to tell us that because the point of the story was the faith of the centurion. Not his occupation.

[dwight92070]

That wasn't Jesus' and John's primary purpose? On the contrary, practically the first word out of both Jesus' and John's mouth was "repent". Luke 3:10 The people are ready and willing to repent but they don't know how to. They ask John to tell them what to do. John tells them to share any excess clothing and food. He tells the tax collectors to not cheat the people by collecting more than they are ordered to. The soldiers heard all of this and they wondered if there was something specifically for them to do to show repentance. John told them: Do not steal money by force. Do not falsely accuse someone. Be content with your pay. If fighting in a war is immoral and sinful, then John would have told them: Do not fight in a war because they would have to know that to repent and to stay moral.

But you say that that was not John's primary purpose, that he assumed that they would learn that later on. But even if that were true, which I don't believe, Paul made no such assumptions in his teaching and instruction. He left nothing to chance. He laid out detailed instructions about how we are to live as Christians, even down to commanding married couples to have sex regularly! Oh, but wait, by your understanding, Paul must have forgotten some very important details. He should have told us never to fight in a war, but he didn't. He should have told us to never become a judge or a soldier or a law officer, but he didn't. He spoke about life, death, slaves, masters, marriage, sex, remarriage, divorce, government authorities, church meetings, the teachings of Jesus, doctrine, singing, prayer, forgiveness, work ethics, idleness, the resurrection, attitudes, giving, money, sin, and the list goes on, but somehow he forgot to talk about this important topic??? I don't think so.

I don't believe Paul or Jesus were pacifists. We know that the kingdom of Jesus is not of this world, therefore we do not physically fight to bring about His kingdom. But we also live in another kingdom, a material realm about which both Jesus and Paul and the other N.T. writers, gave us instruction. The fact that Jesus said that His servants were not fighting because his kingdom was not of this realm does not tell us that Jesus was unaware of this earthyly realm, where, sometimes fighting is necessary.

[dwight92070]

Morbo,

I can't believe that you actually said that Jesus may have forgotten to tell the Centurion that he must now forsake his military career. Jesus, God in the flesh, forgot something??? I don't believe John forgot to mention that to the soldiers, either, but at least that would be more of a possibility, since he was not God.

Paidon,

You can't see that God struck Ananias and Sapphira dead!!!??? That is mere speculation??? But your story that they both died out of fear is not speculation??? Peter just said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? ... Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God." Ananias then falls down dead.

Ananias, led by Satan, has greatly offended the Holy Spirit and God the Father, but we can't put 2 and 2 together and understand that God struck them??

By the way, who killed Herod in Acts 12:23? Let me quote it: "And immediately an angel of the Lord struck him because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and died." Is that clear enough? Or are you going to say, "No, God didn't do that, that was an angel or the worms did it."? Do you not see unequivocably that God does, at times, kill people?

Dwight

[dwight92070]

Paidon,

I'm still waiting to hear what you would do is someone was assaulting your wife. You mentioned that you posed that question to a friend of yours. He said, "I don't know what I would do, but I know what I should do."

So, it appears that you agree with that response and that it is clear to you what you SHOULD do in that situation. So please tell us what you SHOULD do.

Dwight

[dwight92070]

Maybe Jaydam can help you come up with an answer.