What say ye?

[Guest]

1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.



What is your take on this verse? Are women "saved" in child bearing? If so, saved in/from what?

[Guest]

Brody said:

[1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

What is your take on this verse? Are women "saved" in child bearing? If so, saved in/from what?]

Brody here's the defination of the word sozo (saved here).

1) to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction
a) one (from injury or peril)
1) to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health
1) to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue
b) to save in the technical biblical sense
1) negatively
a) to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgment
b) to save from the evils which obstruct the reception of the Messianic deliverance

In this verse I would think the word preserved would apply. It's not referring to salvation from sins. If you do a search for sozo you will see most verses where the word is used is referring to restoring health or preserving health or safety.


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[Guest]

I did a considerable amount of study on this verse, back when I was trying to understand the place of women in ministry.

The historical context is extremely important to properly understanding this verse (IMHO). Timothy is in Ephesus. Ephesus was the Roman capital of Asia Minor and probably the fourth most important city in the Empire. Ephesus was also the center for worship of the goddess Diana (aka Artemis). The temple of Diana in Ephesus was one of the seven wonders of the ancient world. Ephesus was in the region of Phrygia which, prior to the Greeks and Romans, had worshipped the fertility goddess Cybele for 1,000 years. Cybele, in turn, can be traced back to the Assyrian goddess Ishtar, the Phoenician goddess Astarte and the Mesopotamian goddess Semiramis. When the Greeks came to Phrygia, they simply Hellenized Cybele into Artemis. Later, under the Romans, Artemis became Diana and was also known as Magna Mater (Great Mother). It can also be argued that this goddess is still with us in the form of the Virgin Mary (who was given the title "Theotokos" - Greek for "Mother of God" - at the Council of Ephesus in 431), but that's a topic for a different discussion.

Diana (et al) worship therefore was deeply entrenched in Ephesus. According to local tradition, Ephesus was founded by the mythical Amazons. Diana was the virgin huntress and mother/fertility goddess. The apparent contradiction of Diana as both virgin and mother is actually a common thread that runs back through Cybele, Ishtar, Astarte, Semiramis, etc. She was the patroness of young girls and pregnant women. Pregnant women would offer sacrifices to Diana and ask her to save their and their child's life during labor (remember, infant and mother mortality rates were very high in the ancient world). The temple of Diana employed male eunich priests (who dressed as women) and female priestesses. Activities at the temple included ritual sacrifices and ceremonial prostitution.

If you look at 1 Timothy 2:9-15 in this light, it seems that Paul is addressing issues related to former Diana worshippers coming into the church as new Christians.

Here's are a few online sources for further reading on the topic of Diana of Ephesus:
http://www.padfield.com/2000/ephesus.html
http://www.searchgodsword.org/enc/isb/p ... mber=T2679
http://bupc.montana.com/whores/worsemi.html
http://www.inanna.virtualave.net/roman.html
http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/06 ... nto%20Hell

[Guest]

Perhaps if we read again the passage in context, and it may give us some clues as to the meaning.

I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; also that women should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly attire but by good deeds, as befits women who profess religion. Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent.
For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty. I Tim 2:8-15 RSV

[Guest]

Perhaps if we read again the passage in context, and it may give us some clues as to the meaning.

I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; also that women should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly attire but by good deeds, as befits women who profess religion. Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent.
For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty. I Tim 2:8-15 RSV

So what do you think it means Paidion?

[Guest]

This verse has always puzzled me too. I'm interested in your take, Paidon.

Even if we assume from this scripture that women can somehow be saved by child-bearing, what does that mean for single or infertile women? I've always thought there has to be some situational or historical context we're missing out on here.

I know that many fundamentalists interpret this verse to mean that married women are to be baby-making machines, but one of the major mistakes fundamentalists make when attempting to interpret scripture is to take a specific command Paul gave a specific group of people as a solution to a specific problem and make it universal for all believers everywhere.

[Guest]

know that many fundamentalists interpret this verse to mean that married women are to be baby-making machines, but one of the major mistakes fundamentalists make when attempting to interpret scripture is to take a specific command Paul gave a specific group of people as a solution to a specific problem and make it universal for all believers everywhere.

I'm not a fundamentalist. But I do think most of Paul's instruction has universal application, and is not specific to the time and place in which he wrote.

I don't have the time to express my "take" right now, but I'll do so in my next post.

Meanwhile, I'll give you a clue. Do a little study on the word translated
"child bearing".

[Guest]

Thanks, Paidon. I'll be awaiting your reply while I do that word study you suggested.

In the meantime, I want to clarify what I said about how fundamentalists interpret scripture. I did not mean to imply that because Paul's instructions were to a specific people addressing a specific problem that they do not have an application to believers today. I think it is the principle Paul is communicating, rather than a specific command in most cases, that applies to the believer. In other words, we should be more concerned with the spirit of the law than the letter. In my experience, fundamentalists (and I should know b/c I was raised one) are concerned with just the opposite.

I'm not saying you interpreted my point incorrectly; I just wanted to clarify my position in case someone else did.

[Guest]

Here is what I have found from analysing the Greek word "teknogonia".
It is the nominal form of the Greek verb "teknogoneo". I could find the noun in no other place than I Timothy 2:15. I found the verbal form is found in I Timothy 5:14, and in no other place.

I could not find the word at all in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Old Testament.

Both the Online Bible Lexicon and Strong's Lexicon state that the noun has been derived from the verb, and that the verb has been derived from "teknon" (child) and "ginomai" (become).

This led me to think that it is possible that the apostle was not referring to child bearing at all, but rather to becoming child-like.

Truly, I tell you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 18:3.

The context indicates that Paul had been instructing women not to rule men, but to be submissive. So he may have been telling them that they could be saved by being child-like in the same sense Jesus stated it as being necessary in order to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Suppose we consider the passage afresh in this light:

I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; also that women should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly attire but by good deeds, as befits women who profess religion. Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent.
For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet woman will be saved through becoming as a child, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty. I Tim 2:8-15

[Guest]

Interesting! And entirely plausible. But what do you make of the mention of Adam and Eve in the context? What would Paul's motivation be for including them when it seems the passage would be just as well off without them?

I've always thought that understanding why Paul mentioned Adam and Eve in this passage would be the key to understanding the whole passage . . .