Do men suffer for the sins of their ancestors?

[Guest]

1 Samuel 15:2-3

Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember [that] which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid [wait] for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

I Samuel 15 records that the Lord ordered the destruction of the Amalekites. The reason this was commanded, was that the Amalekites attacked the Israelites when they left Egypt. I presume this is a reference to Exodus 17:7-9, where Joshua was attacked by the Amalekites in about 1400 BC.

Since Saul lived sometime around 1000 BC, everyone who participated in that attack ought to have long since been dead by the time God ordered the punishment for the sin of attacking the Israelites to be carried out. On the other hand, in Ezekiel 18 God indicates that He does not punish children for the sin of there fathers.

Ezekiel 18:2

What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?

These two passages seem to contradict, can anyone offer an explaination that reconciles the differences?

Thanks,
Peter

[Guest]

This is a recurring theme in the Bible. God deals with nations corporately and seems to deal with people as individuals. I don't think God would have attacked the Amalekites if they were not still doing evil, no matter what their ancestors had done to Israel. But because they continued to do evil, God rememberd that they deserve a corporate judgement.

Greg Boyd describes corporate/national judgements of the Old Testament this way: God sees mankind as a single man. When cancer pops up in one area, he performs surgery on that area to save the whole body. By removing the cancer, he prevents it from spreading and taking over the body. Some innocent are likely to fall while this corporate judgement is being carried out, but this says nothing of eternal matters, only terrestrial.

It would seem that Ezekiel 18 is speaking of individual salvation, but I could be wrong. I've always taken it that way though. The SOUL that sins, it shall die. A soul is not a national entity. The soul who turns from doing evil and chooses the good, it shall live.

We also have to remember one important thing that's often missed in discussing OT judgements: God is revealed in the person of Jesus. That means, whatever is seen in the OT must be seen in light of what Jesus taught. The writers of the OT were not enlightened in this way... they just didn't know what we know. So, having said this, what was Jesus like? Did he hold someone responsible for their father's sins?

[Guest]

I don't think God would have attacked the Amalekites if they were not still doing evil, no matter what their ancestors had done to Israel.

Agreed.

This is a recurring theme in the Bible. God deals with nations corporately and seems to deal with people as individuals... But because they continued to do evil, God remembered that they deserve a corporate judgment.

I've been thinking that a nation is nothing more than the set of individuals who comprise it. So God is certainly just in punishing a nation when the individuals who are in it are sinning. But if God punishes a nation, because of the sins of the ancestors who are no longer living, then it seems the recipients of the punishment suffer both for their own sins and the sins of their ancestors. I haven't really found a completely satisfactory answer for why this is the case, but what about this passage? (which I think answers the other question you raised).

So, having said this, what was Jesus like? Did he hold someone responsible for their father's sins?

Luke 11:48-50

So you are witnesses and approve the deeds of your fathers; because it was they who killed them, and you build their tombs. "For this reason also the wisdom of God said, 'I will send to them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and some they will persecute, that the blood of all the prophets, shed since the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation,

Is it valid to conclude that a person is justly punished for the sins of their ancestors if they approve of their ancestors sins by word or deed?

[Guest]

Luke 11:48-50
So you are witnesses and approve the deeds of your fathers; because it was they who killed them, and you build their tombs. "For this reason also the wisdom of God said, 'I will send to them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and some they will persecute, that the blood of all the prophets, shed since the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation,

Is it valid to conclude that a person is justly punished for the sins of their ancestors if they approve of their ancestors sins by word or deed?

I think you hit the nail on the head. Jesus would not have scholded them in Luke 11 if they were not still doing and approving the deeds of their fathers. I doubt Jesus ever gave that speech to the twelve, for example. The apostles were Jews and their ancestors had persecuted the prophets as well... yet Jesus did not find fault with them.

Nineveh is a good example. Their ancestors worshipped Istar and we both know what the Assyrians did to the northern kingdom of Israel. And yet, God spared them in the days of Jonah because they repented. I assume this means they stopped approving of what their ancestors had done. The story of Nineveh comports quite nicely to what Jesus taught on guilt and judgement. The thing that's unclear to me is.... just how many have to repent for a city or kingdom to be spared?

[Guest]

Thanks for the reply, and the Ninevah example. You had said,

The thing that's unclear to me is.... just how many have to repent for a city or kingdom to be spared?

I thought of the story of Sodom, which indicated that God was willing to spare the city for the sake of a very small number of righteous men. Perhaps He uses similar criteria for nations.

Further, Ezekiel 14 indicates God can spare a few righteous men while carrying out the judgment against a nation.

Pete