I will give this question a preface before I ask it, becasue it will perhaps lead some of you to give me advice, perhaps some of you have been in similar situations.
Basically, I attend a church (Calvary Chapel) in southern California, and I genuinely think there is very solid Bible teaching and a healthy community of believers. I attend this church because I have yet to find another which has these strengths to this level. That said, I often feel something missing, and feel almost all by myself at this church. I have various friends there, but I often feel that there is an limit as to how edifying our fellowship is. I am a law student and love studying the things of the Lord in depth. When I end up in small group studies of people who truly seem to have a love for Jesus, they often don't want to dig deep into the God's word, but rather reach a quick consensus, and just "Give it over to the Lord." When I associate with those my age (24), they often seem unconcerned with living a Christian life, at least, they are do not appear totally committed to Christ.
In a perfect world (at least for me), I would attend a local gathering of believers, kind of like what I imagine goes on at the gatherings I hear Steve mention on the radio, and there would be discussion and theological diversity such as I see on this forum. I feel that my relationship with the Lord could be enhanced in this setting. At the same time, I once heard Alastair Begg mention that it amazes him how local churches end up being comprised of members of people who think, act, and dress just like themselves, because this is essentially no different from the world. What allows rich and poor, black and white, young and old to fellowship together, despite their dissimilarities, is the fact that they have one thing in common - their love for Jesus.
With all that said, I truly long for the type of fellowship that I have described, but at the same time I don't want to fall into that group of someone who only wants to associate with likeminded people. I love all of my brothers and sisters in Christ, but a part of me is longing for deeper fellowship. I have sought the Lord in prayer, but I don't feel I've received an answer. The only thing I know is that each Sunday, there is a part of me that feels something is missing.
Has anyone been in my situation before? Does anyone have any advice? Finally, is there a Narrow Path type of fellowship in Southern California? Please forgive me if I come across as arrogant or judgmental against those members of my fellowship I have described. I do not intend that and I truly enjoy fellowship with all believers in Christ. There just a part of me that feels all alone.
Advice
JJR, I can't believe how closely this resembles my life. I am faced with the same challenges concerning my present church. I have told my family members that I just cannot seem to get connected with this Baptist congregation. I have tried being a part of one or more of the small group settings but to be quite frank, they all seem to be quite shallow. I know in part this is of my own inadequate understandings of them but at this point I am having this trouble. On the otherhand, I have a wonderful online network of Christian friends and we share alot of ourselves to one another.
My personality has a lot to do with feeling ill at ease with my home church. Not that I am a wierdo or something, I just enjoy honesty in relationships.
I am reading a book right now by the late Michael Yaconelli "Messy Spirituality". It really gives a great discription of us pretenders out there who really need to understand God's annoying love for imperfect people.
This book can be obtained via a link that I have on my website.
I'm afraid I can't be of much help to you other than saying I feel your pain.
Blessings
My personality has a lot to do with feeling ill at ease with my home church. Not that I am a wierdo or something, I just enjoy honesty in relationships.
I am reading a book right now by the late Michael Yaconelli "Messy Spirituality". It really gives a great discription of us pretenders out there who really need to understand God's annoying love for imperfect people.
This book can be obtained via a link that I have on my website.
I'm afraid I can't be of much help to you other than saying I feel your pain.
Blessings
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Thank you both for your honesty. I hope I don't offend people with what I have to say but I believe the reason you are unhappy is because the Spirit of the Lord within you is unhappy also. Thank God that you are sensitive and alive towards God and have His Spirit bearing witness within you.
Todays mainline denominational christianity is not what is shown to us in the New Testiment. By saying this I am not saying at all that they are not filled with true believers. Nor am I judging any individual believers who may go there for fellowship.
Todays "churches" with "a pastor" who does all the speaking and everyone comes and sits in a pew and listens week after week is not what the word tells us. Of course we need those who can teach the word. Pastors( shepherds in the greek text ) and teachers are gifts by the Lord to His body. But the word says "You can all prophecy one by one that all may learn and all may be comforted." The word "all " does not mean one person does all the speaking.
Christianity is filled with many things that have come form man's thought and organization and not from the word. This could and may become a long discussion concerning the practice of church life and fellowship. I'm thankful that you are hungry for the spiritual reality of the body of Christ.
I would say much more concerning this but time does not allow me to at this time.
Todays mainline denominational christianity is not what is shown to us in the New Testiment. By saying this I am not saying at all that they are not filled with true believers. Nor am I judging any individual believers who may go there for fellowship.
Todays "churches" with "a pastor" who does all the speaking and everyone comes and sits in a pew and listens week after week is not what the word tells us. Of course we need those who can teach the word. Pastors( shepherds in the greek text ) and teachers are gifts by the Lord to His body. But the word says "You can all prophecy one by one that all may learn and all may be comforted." The word "all " does not mean one person does all the speaking.
Christianity is filled with many things that have come form man's thought and organization and not from the word. This could and may become a long discussion concerning the practice of church life and fellowship. I'm thankful that you are hungry for the spiritual reality of the body of Christ.
I would say much more concerning this but time does not allow me to at this time.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
I've been where you are at. I attended a church where I was not "plugged in" at all. It was a large mega-church. I loved the events, huge choir and orchestra, and so forth, but there was no discussion and you could go for weeks without attending and no one would notice. We went from there to a very small mission church where I was so involved that I had to give the minister and music leader notice if Iwas not going to be there. It was more of a home-church type of environment, but the other extreme was that it was so small that it was kinda click-ish. There was not a lot of outreach into the community, missions emphasis, or visitors.
So I have been at both extremes. Went to a church that currently has a 7,000 seat auditorium to one with about 15 families. Now I belong to a church that has the best of both worlds. It is large enough that we have a lot of activity with the community and probably two dozen mission trips a year that people can get involved with. I met some great people in a Sunday School class that was oriented towards discussion and class participation. I am disabled now and can no longer attend, but a couple of times a month, a couple of the families that I am close to bring dinner and bible study to me. That has been a true "house church" type of experience.
That leads me to my advice. If you can, try to find a small group Bible study. A lot of these have been springing up after the "Purpose Driven Life" model. It is only in small groups that the deep fellowship happens. And, because of the fact that these are often available during the week, you don't need to leave your church for it. Some may be church sponsored, but you can also find groups devoted to Christian businessmen, job seekers, apologetics ministries, and so forth that cross denominational boundries.
D.
So I have been at both extremes. Went to a church that currently has a 7,000 seat auditorium to one with about 15 families. Now I belong to a church that has the best of both worlds. It is large enough that we have a lot of activity with the community and probably two dozen mission trips a year that people can get involved with. I met some great people in a Sunday School class that was oriented towards discussion and class participation. I am disabled now and can no longer attend, but a couple of times a month, a couple of the families that I am close to bring dinner and bible study to me. That has been a true "house church" type of experience.
That leads me to my advice. If you can, try to find a small group Bible study. A lot of these have been springing up after the "Purpose Driven Life" model. It is only in small groups that the deep fellowship happens. And, because of the fact that these are often available during the week, you don't need to leave your church for it. Some may be church sponsored, but you can also find groups devoted to Christian businessmen, job seekers, apologetics ministries, and so forth that cross denominational boundries.
D.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
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_Christopher
- Posts: 437
- Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:35 pm
- Location: Gladstone, Oregon
Hi JJR,
This is something that you will probably find that you are not alone in. I think many of us log on to this forum to fulfill the exact hunger you described. It may be more of a personality thing than not. God made each of us with a different bent, and it’s sometimes difficult to relate with those who are inclined differently than us. Hence, the birds of a feather flocking together. That may be also why you feel so alienated among hundreds of other Christians. I know the feeling all too well.
I’ve noticed that many (if not most) Christians do not have a burning hunger to know the deeper things of God, and most of today’s churches don’t seem to foster that kind of environment. Many people are satisfied to simply soak up what is taught to them each week from the pulpit and trust the pastor/teacher has done their homework for them and know better than they do. There’s a certain comfort people find in going with the flow and simply subscribing to the theological system of their church. In smaller bible study discussions, consensus is often times preferred by most in the group as well. However, I do not wish to fault anyone for that, it’s not a character flaw IMO. It’s just what people are used to, and for some, it’s all they know. Perhaps, again, consensus is more comfortable because it makes us feel like we’ve reached the truth on a matter or maybe people perceived a disagreement on a topic as a conflict to be avoided at all costs. I think a lot of people define unity in that manner. I came from such a church.
I have a friend that I have discussions with occasionally and we sometimes debate various topics. It’s all very friendly and comfortable for us, but I can tell that his wife becomes very anxious about this because she almost always steps in and pulls him away from the discussion. On another recent occasion, I was in a mid-week bible study and I got into a friendly debate with a brother on the topic we were discussing. Again, all very calm and charitable, but for some reason, he felt compelled to apologize to me a few days later about the whole thing. I have no idea why he thought I was offended by the disagreement, but since he brought it up, I felt I should make sure he wasn’t either. I think many people in the church are the same way. It may be the over-sensitive culture we have in the church these days, or it could be that I come across more cantankerous than I realize.
In any case, for those of us who are not satisfied having others do our homework for us and want to explore issues deeper, we often find ourselves feeling awkward and out of place. Since people like us seem to be the oddballs, I think satisfying that hunger for more is going to have to take place on a less formal level, outside of our normal church attendance. I don’t know if I have any good advice, but I can share my personal approach with you.
First of all, I would say that there’s no need to leave your church to find what you’re looking for. I suspect that there are others in your fellowship (or at least in your area) that have the same thirst for the deeper things of God. The trick is finding and befriending them. But it’s incumbent upon us to keep trying. I think God will honor the effort. I have found the process to be very rewarding actually.
You wrote:
I’ve found home groups to be the most conducive to this because their typically less formal and there’s usually a time of open fellowship before or after the study. The church we currently attend doesn’t have home groups, so I have done an on-line search for house churches and visited a few. It can take awhile to find one that is a fit, but it’s worth the search. I’ve found most of them to be very welcoming of newcomers. We’ve recently found one that has people that seem to have a similar desire for the deeper things of God (and there’s other kids!!). We’re still not sure if it’s the right place for us, but so far we like it.
So I agree with D.J.. There’s no need to leave your church, but it never hurts to expand your horizons a little.
Lord bless.
This is something that you will probably find that you are not alone in. I think many of us log on to this forum to fulfill the exact hunger you described. It may be more of a personality thing than not. God made each of us with a different bent, and it’s sometimes difficult to relate with those who are inclined differently than us. Hence, the birds of a feather flocking together. That may be also why you feel so alienated among hundreds of other Christians. I know the feeling all too well.
I’ve noticed that many (if not most) Christians do not have a burning hunger to know the deeper things of God, and most of today’s churches don’t seem to foster that kind of environment. Many people are satisfied to simply soak up what is taught to them each week from the pulpit and trust the pastor/teacher has done their homework for them and know better than they do. There’s a certain comfort people find in going with the flow and simply subscribing to the theological system of their church. In smaller bible study discussions, consensus is often times preferred by most in the group as well. However, I do not wish to fault anyone for that, it’s not a character flaw IMO. It’s just what people are used to, and for some, it’s all they know. Perhaps, again, consensus is more comfortable because it makes us feel like we’ve reached the truth on a matter or maybe people perceived a disagreement on a topic as a conflict to be avoided at all costs. I think a lot of people define unity in that manner. I came from such a church.
I have a friend that I have discussions with occasionally and we sometimes debate various topics. It’s all very friendly and comfortable for us, but I can tell that his wife becomes very anxious about this because she almost always steps in and pulls him away from the discussion. On another recent occasion, I was in a mid-week bible study and I got into a friendly debate with a brother on the topic we were discussing. Again, all very calm and charitable, but for some reason, he felt compelled to apologize to me a few days later about the whole thing. I have no idea why he thought I was offended by the disagreement, but since he brought it up, I felt I should make sure he wasn’t either. I think many people in the church are the same way. It may be the over-sensitive culture we have in the church these days, or it could be that I come across more cantankerous than I realize.
In any case, for those of us who are not satisfied having others do our homework for us and want to explore issues deeper, we often find ourselves feeling awkward and out of place. Since people like us seem to be the oddballs, I think satisfying that hunger for more is going to have to take place on a less formal level, outside of our normal church attendance. I don’t know if I have any good advice, but I can share my personal approach with you.
First of all, I would say that there’s no need to leave your church to find what you’re looking for. I suspect that there are others in your fellowship (or at least in your area) that have the same thirst for the deeper things of God. The trick is finding and befriending them. But it’s incumbent upon us to keep trying. I think God will honor the effort. I have found the process to be very rewarding actually.
You wrote:
I have attended several of these meetings when Steve comes up to Portland and it’s true that I have found them to be absolutely riveting and edifying. I always look forward to them and I’m disappointed when I have to miss them (like this coming weekend for example). While I could wish that they were more frequent, I’m finding that it’s also possible to find stimulating fellowship similar to this in other venues.In a perfect world (at least for me), I would attend a local gathering of believers, kind of like what I imagine goes on at the gatherings I hear Steve mention on the radio, and there would be discussion and theological diversity such as I see on this forum. I feel that my relationship with the Lord could be enhanced in this setting.
I’ve found home groups to be the most conducive to this because their typically less formal and there’s usually a time of open fellowship before or after the study. The church we currently attend doesn’t have home groups, so I have done an on-line search for house churches and visited a few. It can take awhile to find one that is a fit, but it’s worth the search. I’ve found most of them to be very welcoming of newcomers. We’ve recently found one that has people that seem to have a similar desire for the deeper things of God (and there’s other kids!!). We’re still not sure if it’s the right place for us, but so far we like it.
So I agree with D.J.. There’s no need to leave your church, but it never hurts to expand your horizons a little.
Lord bless.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32
Hola:
I agree with Christopher in that if you are interested in exploring "discussion and theological diversity " you will not be able to do it within a church setting.
The problem is really human nature. People do not like to be disagreed with. Disagreement over even small issiues can lead to ill will and devide and destroy a church. Some people are more tolerant than others but everyone has a point where they will start screaming "heresy".
The whole point of Bible study within a church has nothing to do with fellowship. It's about indoctrination. It is always aimed at coming up with a consensis consistant with the doctrines of the particular denomination and anything which strays too far will not be welcome. It's point is to get everyone "playing on the same sheet of music". This is acctually very necesary as no organization can last when there are diverse groups fighting over who is right and who is wrong.
I suspect that even a small group that starts diverse will ,with time , narrow itself down to a stricter doctrine in order to avoid the problems that come with disagreement. Your best bet is to keep doing what you are doing on this site , and hopefully meet someone with whom you can discuss things without gettig angry.
Personally , I avoid Bible studies and for that matter do not discuss doctrine with other members in the church. I know what the church teaches and agree with most of it , I assume everyone else does as well so I leave it alone. The one time I was pulled into a discussion , with a missionary , we disagreed. It did not edify either of us and did leave a certain ill will.
That said , I love the church that I'm at. Great fellowship and lot's to do. For example , last Sunday after the service we sat around eating chicken and rice , and watching the World Cup. I was set up with giving an englsh class , co-ordinated driving/interpreting work for some missionary groups. Talked about and listened to personal problems and generally acted like a large family get together. (30 people or so it's not a large church) But talk doctrine? never.
Thomas
I agree with Christopher in that if you are interested in exploring "discussion and theological diversity " you will not be able to do it within a church setting.
The problem is really human nature. People do not like to be disagreed with. Disagreement over even small issiues can lead to ill will and devide and destroy a church. Some people are more tolerant than others but everyone has a point where they will start screaming "heresy".
The whole point of Bible study within a church has nothing to do with fellowship. It's about indoctrination. It is always aimed at coming up with a consensis consistant with the doctrines of the particular denomination and anything which strays too far will not be welcome. It's point is to get everyone "playing on the same sheet of music". This is acctually very necesary as no organization can last when there are diverse groups fighting over who is right and who is wrong.
I suspect that even a small group that starts diverse will ,with time , narrow itself down to a stricter doctrine in order to avoid the problems that come with disagreement. Your best bet is to keep doing what you are doing on this site , and hopefully meet someone with whom you can discuss things without gettig angry.
Personally , I avoid Bible studies and for that matter do not discuss doctrine with other members in the church. I know what the church teaches and agree with most of it , I assume everyone else does as well so I leave it alone. The one time I was pulled into a discussion , with a missionary , we disagreed. It did not edify either of us and did leave a certain ill will.
That said , I love the church that I'm at. Great fellowship and lot's to do. For example , last Sunday after the service we sat around eating chicken and rice , and watching the World Cup. I was set up with giving an englsh class , co-ordinated driving/interpreting work for some missionary groups. Talked about and listened to personal problems and generally acted like a large family get together. (30 people or so it's not a large church) But talk doctrine? never.
Thomas
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
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_livingink
- Posts: 153
- Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:54 pm
Hello JJR,
I have much the same experience as the others. One thing that has been working for me is discussion with people I meet through my work. Several people ask questions that pertain to theological matters and you have to do a lot of studying to answer the questions or to even recognize that they have opened the door to a discussion. I don't know if you've ever tried teaching a lesson on a biblical topic in a group but I might encourage you to pick a topic as if you were going to teach it. Read up on various interpretations of that particular scripture. Learn the Greek or Hebrew words and their definitions as you will find that this often teaches you the lessons by opening the scripture to you. Steve has some lectures on the website that you can hear which may pertain to the particular passage of scripture you're going to teach. Or listen to other teachers if you have time. Start with a topic that can be treated in a lesson or two rather than a study of Revelation. For example, What does the word prophet mean as described in the OT?
So, now you have a topic and you are armed with your sword. You need a group. Is there a group that would meet with you to listen to your lesson? You might even ask some folks to give you a couple hours to throw a topic at them with the understanding that the discussion is open and you'd welcome questions to help you understand. The teacher learns more from the lesson than the pupil when starting out because the teacher will consider so much information getting ready for the questions that will never be asked that the teacher assimilates it at a higher level. In a future lesson, that extra information will be needed and will come out of your mouth and you won't remember from where it came. And sometimes, the Holy Spirit just takes over and uses a member of the crowd to teach a principle that you hadn't considered but which edifies the assembly.
Whether you ever teach a formal lesson or not is your decision but it may be one way to actively address your frustration with the church that "is" in favor of creating the church that "can be". All the great Greek words that describe the Christian experience--faith, hope, love--have within them the element of activity.
Exodus 14:15 And the Lord said unto Moses, Wherefore criest thou unto me? speak unto the children of Israel, that they go forward: KJV
kind regards,
livingink
I have much the same experience as the others. One thing that has been working for me is discussion with people I meet through my work. Several people ask questions that pertain to theological matters and you have to do a lot of studying to answer the questions or to even recognize that they have opened the door to a discussion. I don't know if you've ever tried teaching a lesson on a biblical topic in a group but I might encourage you to pick a topic as if you were going to teach it. Read up on various interpretations of that particular scripture. Learn the Greek or Hebrew words and their definitions as you will find that this often teaches you the lessons by opening the scripture to you. Steve has some lectures on the website that you can hear which may pertain to the particular passage of scripture you're going to teach. Or listen to other teachers if you have time. Start with a topic that can be treated in a lesson or two rather than a study of Revelation. For example, What does the word prophet mean as described in the OT?
So, now you have a topic and you are armed with your sword. You need a group. Is there a group that would meet with you to listen to your lesson? You might even ask some folks to give you a couple hours to throw a topic at them with the understanding that the discussion is open and you'd welcome questions to help you understand. The teacher learns more from the lesson than the pupil when starting out because the teacher will consider so much information getting ready for the questions that will never be asked that the teacher assimilates it at a higher level. In a future lesson, that extra information will be needed and will come out of your mouth and you won't remember from where it came. And sometimes, the Holy Spirit just takes over and uses a member of the crowd to teach a principle that you hadn't considered but which edifies the assembly.
Whether you ever teach a formal lesson or not is your decision but it may be one way to actively address your frustration with the church that "is" in favor of creating the church that "can be". All the great Greek words that describe the Christian experience--faith, hope, love--have within them the element of activity.
Exodus 14:15 And the Lord said unto Moses, Wherefore criest thou unto me? speak unto the children of Israel, that they go forward: KJV
kind regards,
livingink
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Sometimes I wonder if some of us are learning much more than we are doing. How much does one need to know to be a good Christian? It is my understanding the early Christians thought Christianity was a simple religion. But on the other hand they didn't have the waters muddied up with all the things we struggle to sort through such as once saved always saved, charismania, Calvinism, dispensationalism, all the other isms, plus the big hair preachers on TV. 
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
A Berean
Excellent observation, Homer. i can always count on you!
i think about what you are saying all of the time.
i love theology-- i love the bible-- and i love talking about both.
but jesus said to be like little children.
my hope and my prayer is that my "learning" and "discussing" will never replace my "doing".
if it does, the Lord will be sorely disappointed in me.
something all of us here need to keep in mind.
for lack of a better phrase, let's all strive "keep it real" in our daily lives.
TK
i think about what you are saying all of the time.
i love theology-- i love the bible-- and i love talking about both.
but jesus said to be like little children.
my hope and my prayer is that my "learning" and "discussing" will never replace my "doing".
if it does, the Lord will be sorely disappointed in me.
something all of us here need to keep in mind.
for lack of a better phrase, let's all strive "keep it real" in our daily lives.
TK
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"Were not our hearts burning within us? (Lk 24:32)