What is my responsibility as a Christian?

[Michelle]

God is helping me move from a servant, to a friend.

Did you quit The Navigators, stop making disciples, sleep more because you spend no time seeking the Lord and applying the Word to your life? You seem to assume that everyone is trapped by the same motivations that you were - your "trying to 'be' good by [your]works."

When we break a N.T. command we sin. Who will die for this new sin? Did Jesus just die to cover animal sacrifices and O.T. law? If that's all He died for, who will cover my N.T. sin?

Who says this? Have you really run into lots of people who believe that Christ only died for certain sins? Christ's blood covers all sins, which is pretty amazing, isn't it? I don't think I have to worry about which kind of sin I'm committing (or really if I'm sinning at all) which actually frees me up to do good works, whether I do them well, or completely fail at them, because of Grace. I live under no system of merit, but my sins do grieve me and I long to be rid of them, because, again, Grace astounds me.

We are oblivious about what law really is and which type of law Paul speaks.

Understanding what law is and what the standard of righteousness truly is is paramount to understanding God's grace and mercy. Jesus fulfilled all law.

I'll bite - I'm not sure what you're talking about, so maybe I don't understand God's grace and mercy?

[mattrose]

Mattrose, please consider your statements, "we repent of our disobedience and receive the forgiveness that comes through the blood of Christ" and then, "In our case, we are happy to obey the laws of our King".

I see many brothers and sisters being freed from the requirements and consequence of death under the Law of Moses (since not a jot or tittle will pass from the law until all is fulfilled), but then we turn right around and place ourselves back under the law.

Yes, there are people who do that. You've suggested that you struggled with that yourself. I'm suggesting that there are plenty of people that aren't struggling with that. I don't feel weighted down by the do's and don'ts of Christ's constitution. I want to obey Christ.

So if you're goal is to remind Christians that we aren't saved by doing a bunch of stuff, cool. Just realize that such a message isn't necessary for everyone. Sometimes the opposite message is necessary (see the letter of James!)

When we break a N.T. command we sin. Who will die for this new sin? Did Jesus just die to cover animal sacrifices and O.T. law? If that's all He died for, who will cover my N.T. sin? I can't just repent and have Jesus cover it... He died for sin once for all! Otherwise all "unrepented" sin would mean death for me. This doesn't sound like good news to me.

In this section, you frankly seem confused. Yes, not submitting to Christ in a given area is a sin. But the simple answer to your first question (who will die for this new sin?) is that Jesus already died for it. Jesus death atones for as many sins as are repented of, not just animal sacrifices and OT laws.

I am somewhat flabbergasted by your comment "I can't just repent and have Jesus cover it..." Huh? When I sin, that's exactly what I do. It keeps working because He died once and for all. "Unrepented" sin does mean death for me. What Christian would be unrepentant about sin once they are convicted of it? It's good news b/c genuine repentance always works. I don't have to do a bunch of things to get back on God's good side. I simply confess and He is faithful and just to forgive and continue cleansing me.

Christians should have a sense of obligation to their King and should be obedient... but this is law. God is helping me move from a servant, to a friend.

You seem to be talking out both sides of your mouth here. Christians should... but you've moved on from that... It's sorta confusing. Both the servant metaphor and the friend metaphor are true metaphors. They both serve a purpose. I'd recommend you don't emphasize one at the expense of another.

[dseusy]

Michelle,

Good questions...

I didn't quit the Navigators, stop making disciples, or sleep more. I didn't stop spending time with the Lord or stop applying His Word to my life... I did, however, stop striving. Is it possible that we are all trying to be good by our works without realizing it? This seems okay as a new Christian, but won't it at some point (since we fail) cause us to become like pharisees or compromise God's righteousness and justice that we may justify ourselves? If the law doesn't lead us to Christ, rather than to more works (of our own striving) where are we going? I think we all struggle with this whether we realize it or not. Our value is very tied up in this life. I'd say maybe I'm the only one who struggles with this, but I've learned differently.

I run into a lot of people that believe that Jesus died to fulfill the Law of Moses, but they say the New Testament commands are our responsibility, without realizing that by that statement they condemn themselves under God's righteous standards and the law of sin and death. I think it's great that you have eyes to see and ears to hear God's grace. Praise God!

As far as law goes, check out 1 John. But read it in a word for word translation. The writers of the NIV took great liberty in adding words like "continue" to 1 John 3:6 and others to make it more "readable". See if you run into any verses that feel like contradictions.

God bless

[dseusy]

Mattrose,

Great points... I think you are right, that we do need to hear different things at different stages in our walk- I just put out here what is encouraging me, and if it encourages others, fantastic... if it doesn't make sense, that's okay too (hopefully it will someday).

What I meant by my statement about repentance is that some believe that they can do whatever they want and say sorry, then go do it again and say sorry, never actually trusting Jesus.

And then some believe they must specifically repent for each and every sin... this is what I was addressing- it is impossible to keep up with. We, as Christians, likely have a lifestyle of repentance where we have a constant heart of sorrow concerning sin, but by faith we move past the guilt to live in the freedom of God. It is out of this joy that witnessing has power and love is sincere.

Concerning talking out of both sides of my mouth, I was upholding the law... "Christians should"... we should do a lot of things, like what is good, righteous, and lawful... but this is the law which is fulfilled. The "shoulds" have been covered. It is a sequential statement, not a contradictory one. The servant and friend metaphor are both from the Bible, but one is a stepping stone to the other... the law leads us to Christ... since it is way better to be a friend of God rather than a servant, I promote the better. I'm not trying to teach people to disobey God's commands... otherwise I would be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven... I don't mean to preach friendship at the expense of anything worthwhile, but shouldn't we grow and progress from servants to friends?

[mattrose]

Great points... I think you are right, that we do need to hear different things at different stages in our walk- I just put out here what is encouraging me, and if it encourages others, fantastic... if it doesn't make sense, that's okay too (hopefully it will someday).

I definitely remember a time in my life (about 10 years ago now) where I was struggling through what you testified about. And, of course, there may come a time again when I struggle with it. Reading a post such as yours might prove helpful in such a time. To state, though, that everyone is struggling with it whether they realize it or not (as you said to Michelle) is probably an overstatement. We need not decide b/w being encouraged by your post or it not making sense to us. Sometimes it just isn't applicable to the person in question. It's pretty normal to get excited when God teaches you something and think that everyone needs to learn that lesson right now just like you did, but the reality is God is working on each of us differently. Paul wrote to the Romans about what they were dealing with. James wrote to his scattered congregation about what they were dealing with. If the letters had gotten switched around en route, I don't think they would have been extremely helpful to the churches in those locations considering what they were dealing with (at least not at the moment).

What I meant by my statement about repentance is that some believe that they can do whatever they want and say sorry, then go do it again and say sorry, never actually trusting Jesus. And then some believe they must specifically repent for each and every sin... this is what I was addressing- it is impossible to keep up with. We, as Christians, likely have a lifestyle of repentance where we have a constant heart of sorrow concerning sin, but by faith we move past the guilt to live in the freedom of God. It is out of this joy that witnessing has power and love is sincere.

I think you have properly identified the errors people make in regard to repentance. Some take it very casually (just saying sorry) while others agonize over trying to figure out every sin from their past. It seemed to me that rather than trying to find the balanced truth b/w these two errors, you were making a third error (not practicing the discipline of repentance at all post-conversion). But since repentance is a means to purity, that would be akin to saying you're already perfect once you convert (or have no interest in becoming more righteous).

Concerning talking out of both sides of my mouth, I was upholding the law... "Christians should"... we should do a lot of things, like what is good, righteous, and lawful... but this is the law which is fulfilled. The "shoulds" have been covered. It is a sequential statement, not a contradictory one. The servant and friend metaphor are both from the Bible, but one is a stepping stone to the other... the law leads us to Christ... since it is way better to be a friend of God rather than a servant, I promote the better. I'm not trying to teach people to disobey God's commands... otherwise I would be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven... I don't mean to preach friendship at the expense of anything worthwhile, but shouldn't we grow and progress from servants to friends?

Here I just disagree with you on both counts.

1. The "shoulds" have been covered only in the sense of earning salvation. The things that some people think they "should" do to earn salvation are not necessary in order to become one of God's people. But in another sense the "shoulds" are very much alive. In response to what God has done, what sort of people ought we to be? Even Paul has plenty to say about that!

2. I don't think the servant metaphor is a stepping stone to the friend metaphor. I think they are both helpful metaphors. Of course, people who have a legalistic mindset may need to focus on the friend metaphor more. But the opposite may be true of someone who has a haphazard or liberal view of reality. They may need to focus on the fact that God is their LORD, Owner, Master, King, etc.

It depends very much on where someone is in their heart and mind.

[steve7150]

It is obligatory under law. Jesus preached the Law of Moses. If you strive to obey these and call it love for Jesus, then I submit for your consideration that you are obligated to obey the whole law... animal sacrifices and all, and N.T. commands as well.dseusy





Jesus did not preach the law of Moses he fulfilled it but the NT "law" is known by 7 different terms & very different the then law of Moses. The terms i remember are the "law of Christ,God,the Spirit,Royal Law,Law of Liberty & and there are 2 more, perhaps "law of faith" & that leaves one more. These were preached by Jesus & his Apostles throughout the NT & are principals to live by. There is no more Law of Moses for a Christian.
Lastly Paul did use the phrase "the law" often & that did refer to the law of Moses like when he said, "But if you are led by the Spirit , you are no longer under law." Gal 5.18

[steve]

Hi dseusy,

It is a common mistake, I think, that Christians make in taking Paul's teachings that we are "not under the law," to mean, "there is no law for Christians." Paul's negative statements about the law are made with reference to the Torah, not as a code of moral imperatives to be dispensed with, but as the distinguishing mark of Jewishness and Old Covenant compliance.

The duty of honoring parents, and the condemning of murder, adultery, theft and bearing false witness were moral imperatives that were not distinctly Jewish. They define a general code of decency acknowledged by a number of pagan societies as well (e.g., the laws of Hamurabi). The "laws" that distinguished the Jews from other nations were those prescribing certain ritual practices, like circumcision, sabbath and Passover observance, and dietary restrictions. It is these things that Paul mentions in his concerns about Gentile believers embracing "the law."

In other words, Paul did not recommend any form of antinomianism, but was aghast to see Christians, who had experienced the fulfillment in Christ, seeking some righteous identity in terms of becoming part of the Jewish religion—an incomplete system comprised of shadows, not substance. The main issue, I think, was that the Jews thought themselves to be right with God on the basis of having received and observed these ceremonies, independently of any compliance with basic moral standards (see Romans 2).

This mentality places an assumed relationship with God upon a mistaken footing, which Paul wished, above all things, to prevent among his converts.

Paul himself believed that he was not under the [mosaic] law, "but under Christ's law" (1 Cor.9:20-21). No writer more strongly urged obedience to God (Rom.6:16 / 2 Cor.10:5-6) and the maintaining of good works (e.g., Acts 26:20 / Rom.2:6-7, 10 / Gal. 5:6 / Eph.2:10 / 1 Tim. 2:10; 5:10; 6:18 / 2 Tim. 3:17 / Titus 2:7, 14; 3:8, 14) than did Paul .

And why not? He was a follower of Jesus, who commanded the disciples to love one another (a command to be obeyed—John 13:34-35) and to teach all nations to observe everything that He had commanded (Matt.28:18-20).

It is a shame that obedience to Christ should be thought to be in conflict with the message of grace, when grace itself teaches us to live holy and obedient lives (Tit.2:11-12).

It is a strange thing to discourage any duty of obedience in the interest of developing a "friendship" relationship with Christ, since Jesus Himself said, "You are my friends if you do whatever I command you" (John 15:14).

If obedience to Christ is pharisaism, then Christ and Paul must have been very popular among the Pharisees.

Of course, the other writers of the New Testament also urge obedience (see James 2). Peter said that the Holy Spirit has been given by God to "those who obey Him" (Acts 5:32), and the writer to the Hebrews said that Jesus has become the author of eternal salvation to "all who obey Him" (Heb.5:9).

None of these passages make obedience the basis of our acceptance with God. However, they all describe the obedience that characterizes the lives of those who are true Christians.

You seem not to be able to distinguish between bearing "responsibility" (the word you used in your original question, and to which I responded) and an entirely different concept: that of being accepted into God's good graces. A child will always be accepted by a loving parent—but not on the basis of works or performance. The parent's good graces are unconditionally toward his/her child. But it would be very foolish to suggest that a child is born into the world without any responsibilities. For example, there is a very clear responsibility on the part of the child to obey and honor the parent. This is a very different matter, though, from the question of what the basis may be for the child's inclusion in the family. See 1 Peter 1:14, 17

[dseusy]

Mattrose,

I agree with you that God works on each of us differently and at different times, but His Good News applies to us all in one way or another... whether we are in the law stage or revelation stage- it's universal. However, I think you have a good point and I appreciate the sharpening... Paul exhorted us to be all things to all men- kind of tough to do it in a forum, but balance is good- I just don't want to water it down.

Concerning your opinion on my repentance error, have you ever seen the newer movie, "Luther"? He took repentance so seriously, and with his law & monk background giving him some insight into the height and seriousness of God's commands, he was on his face every night confessing the littlest things... he eventually realized that our life as a Christian is one of having a constant heart of repentance rather than making the confession it's own religious ritual. And I do believe we are perfect once we convert and are as righteous as we can be because He credited this righteousness to us, we are a new creation, and we are pure as He is pure with this hope in us (1 John 3:3). How can we make ourselves more righteous than what Christ as already made us?

Your disagreements:

1. I agree that Paul often exhorted and commanded people... they needed it just as you and I do- this doesn't change the fact that He is either preaching law or encouraging us to continue in faith in Christ and bear fruit.

2. The servant metaphor was a stepping stone to the friend metaphor for me... I'll try not to project this on others, although I hope everyone will become completely reconciled to God and become His friends, rather than His slaves- Love drives out fear.

Thanks again for the spurring comments

[dseusy]

Steve7150,

Jesus taught the Law of Moses in Matthew 5, and He raised it to a higher level. I agree that there is no more Law of Moses for a Christian, just as all law has been fulfilled by Christ.

Galatians 5:18 refers to a law that is not specifically the Law of Moses... Nomos law is: anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command of any law whatsoever, unless it is specifically stated, "of Moses".

[dseusy]

Steve,

I wholeheartedly believe that there is no more law for Christians... if there was, who would pay the penalty (under God's righteousness and justice) for breaking it? Jesus only died once.

Paul's comments about the law are not negative concerning the law... they are communicating the imperative to move past the law, but Paul upheld the law as good. He referenced universal law much more than he referenced the Torah... I've studied this specific point extensively.

I'm familiar with anthropology and cultural taboos. These are an aspect of Nomos but are certainly not encompassing. The context Paul uses this term "law" in relates even to the Torah:

Galatians 5:3 "For I testify again to every man that is circumcised , that he is a debtor to do the whole law." Circumcision is more than a Jewish custom.

Steve, I've got to disagree with this statement, "Paul did not recommend any form of antinomianism, but was aghast to see Christians, who had experienced the fulfillment in Christ, seeking some righteous identity in terms of becoming part of the Jewish religion."

"You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4 Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? 5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? 6 Consider Abraham: 'He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.'" Galatians 3:1-6

I don't believe this is just about Jewish customs, but about whether they are receiving the Spirit by earning or believing.

I agree that Paul upheld the law.

I don't believe that obedience and grace are in conflict, I believe they are partners for our salvation- but not at the same time. If we could be perfectly obedient, we wouldn't need mercy.

Jesus taught the law. The new covenant didn't kick in until the curtain was torn and then we received His Spirit.

I like your point about Christ and Paul being popular among the Pharisees... hilarious- since we both know this wasn't true, something else must be. If we make obedience to Christ cleaning the outside of the cup, then we will likely make ourselves popular among modern day Pharisees.

I believe Acts 5:32 isn't about receiving the Spirit because of obedience (otherwise Paul wouldn't have said we receive the Spirit by believing- above), but that those who obey have the Spirit- they couldn't obey without it. It is a characteristic of obedience, that a believer has the Spirit, not a consequence- or else salvation is by obedience.

Obedience does characterize the life of a Spirit-filled Christian, but the flesh is still corrupt and it is still fruit, and not a result of earning it through law-abiding behavior.

If we are responsible for our righteousness through obedience, we will never enter God's good graces. I think it may be inevitable that we bear responsibility until the law leads us to Christ and we allow Him to bear it for us. The responsibility for a child to obey the parent is law, and all children have failed their responsibility... can they still be children? Of course... God knew this command was for sin to increase (the command is law and the law was added for this purpose). I believe the fear talk (1 Peter 1) is Peter laying down the law... the Gentile believers didn't have the law (as we know Christ is foolishness to those not having the law), so perhaps he is helping the recipients of the letter who need an understanding of why they need mercy. Americans are in the same boat... we don't understand the law, so when you go witness to those who haven't been taught the law they respond, "I'm a pretty good person... why do I need Jesus?". The law was added so that sin might increase. The law was added so that lawlessness might increase- why then would lawfulness be a responsibility? (Romans 11:32)

Steve, I'm kind of straight forward with this stuff, but I really appreciate how God has worked through you to encourage me and others. Your messages, "Some Assembly Required", have really encouraged me and I appreciated the church history.

Steve, I believe we should take responsibility seriously. If obedience is a responsibility we must be obedient. If we fail even once, we have fallen from righteousness. Jesus has covered our failure and our relationship with God is no longer about our responsibility under the law, but about His love for us. Since I fail to God's commands perfectly, I have guilt associated with my sin. Guilt makes it impossible to approach the throne with confidence. How can I be guilty and be reconciled to God? I believe the ministry of reconciliation is that Christ did away with guilt by gifting me blamelessness.

"He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach" Colossians 1:22 I don't present myself Holy, Christ does.