Christian Relationships...

[Guest]

Allyn,
I appreciate the response. If I overeacted I appoligize. I am at work (I'm allowed to surf the web and read at work). When I read that reply that said something about being holier than thou; I just finished dealing with a contractor that does not get along with one of our employees. I supervise the security in an office building. So, with my position as head of security I could not allow him to work here. I told his company a few days ago but they failed to fill him in. He gave me a major attitude. So, needless to say my judgement of someones post may have been a little clouded after dealing with a little bit of a stressfull situation at work.

Thanks,
Brian

[Guest]

Hey Brian, I understand fully. I work with the public as a general contractor. No need to apologize. I think we serve the same Lord.

[Guest]

Paul says in 1 Cor. 5:11 not to even eat with someone "called a brother" who is a "fornicator, coveteous, idolator, a drunkerd, extortioner, or a railer"

I would like to hear some responses to this, because I am going through a similar situation at my job. There is a guy there who says he is a Christian but is living in fornication among other things. He listens to Christian radio all day and wears Christian t-shirts but that is about all that is "Christian" about him.

I have showed him very clearly what the scriptures say, I have prayed with him and for him and tried to encourage him in the right direction but he has not repented. He is a hindrance to the Gospel at my workplace because of his behaviour.

So anyway, I am in a similar situation brother. I could use some advice myself.

Derek

[Guest]

Just to add to the discussion. Here is Jesus's response:

Matthew 18: 15-17 -

15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.
17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Notice the part on witnesses. If you are to confront your friend with others make sure they are a witness to his sinful acts, so they can rebuke him rightly, in love of course.

[Guest]

Hi

My heart ( and prayers) go out to all of you who are dealing with this problem. I have had this alot in my family and even myself when I backslid a cple years ago. It is a tough situation on both sides. I found the best thing from being on both sides was showing love and compassion with much prayer and listening to Gods spirit.

If we were all to really look in the spiritual mirror at ourselves we all struggle with something. Even over eating can be considered gluttony , sinful and accepted by many as "not that bad" depending on who you hang out with and thier viewpoints.But to be legalistic it is sin and done quite blatantly.

I think it's best to search your heart in prayer and with Gods words follow what you believe the holy spirit is counseling you to do. It is also good to share with others in a limited manner.I have met with counsel and pastors during some of these times I have been in. Some tell me (fellow Christians even) I go to far trying to understand and give folks time to change) But I have had to stay with my own convictions in the end.

I believe God usually does things for a multitude of reasons most of which I probubly am not even aware of at the time. But talking alot to several folks can even run into gossip quite easily when a person is stressed and under pressure to get some relief .So I think some caution is good who you share specifics with..Even though I have tried to walk this place compassionately on both sides I'm certain I have gone overboard in both places. But thanks to God I know I have been forgiven.I tried my best in love as I know it.

I think God loves courage so when you apply it he is there to help you. It takes courage to not just walk away when things get tough, but hang in there. Some times when I felt like I just couldn't stand in that place for a loved one anymore I would remember Christ on the cross for me and it almost seemed ridiculous that I was complaining at all. In the forgiveness I have recieved it helps me pass that on to others.

As far as when some one is really rattling your own family, or personal weaknesses with their sin thats tough.I've been there too, but have seen God wanted more strength from me in my temptations and used the situation to help me in the end. I did get stronger, it revealed alot of things in my life, people around me, that I might not have known otherwise?.

But I think if you still pray and seek Gods answers you will find a middle road where you can still show compassion but also draw some lines for your self and your family. This world is a tough place and as we all know getting tougher. Compassion with love still goes far though.

God bless you that your hearts desire to make things right as best you can for everyone is there. That is such a great starting place.

My thoughts Glow

[Guest]

I think it’s not uncommon for Christians, at some point in their life, to encounter this situation with someone they know. Like Derek, I work with a guy who used to walk with the Lord, but now appears to have walked away from Him. Actually, there’s several people in my office who would call themselves “Christians” but have lives that would suggest otherwise. Backsliding and apostasy are difficult to deal with because we know that the people doing it ought to know better.

It seems to me that there are a couple of biblical principles to consider here:

On the one hand, the passages like the one Derek quoted (1 Cor 5) seem to suggest that we should dis-fellowship people who call themselves Christians yet habitually live in sin. Paul says in Ephesians:

Eph 5:5-7
5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
NKJV


On the other hand, we are also told that we ought to love and seek to restore such people. James says:

James 5:19-20
19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
NKJV

And Paul says:

Gal 6:1
6:1 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.
NKJV

I think the real issue is what fulfills the greatest commandments, love for God and love for your neighbor. What is the loving thing to do?

What was Paul’s reason for suggesting that the Corinthians “not even to eat with such a person.” (1 Cor 5:11) who is living immorally? I think he gives the reason back in vs. 5

1 Cor 5:5
5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
NKJV

Apparently, Paul thought it wasn’t a loving thing to allow people to feel “comfortable” in their sin. A person’s soul is at stake. By ignoring someone’s sinful lifestyle and pretending all is well, extending to them acceptance as they are, we become accomplices to their self-deception and their self-destruction.

Also, immorality by someone who calls themselves a Christian is a reproach to the body of Christ. We ought to find it offensive and repulsive, not simply mildly irritating or "less than ideal". Sin must be dealt with, in a firm but loving way. I think the message that comes across ought to be “I love you, but I hate what you’re doing”. Repentance and restoral must be the goal. Paul said:

2 Tim 2:24-26
..a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
NKJV

Often times when a backslider is confronted, we don’t have to worry about excommunicating them because they usually do that themselves. When someone’s “deeds are evil” they “love the darkness” and “hate the light”.

I have been on the receiving end of this myself. When I was young in the Lord, I continued in certain sinful behavior and other Christians knew it. Until one brother confronted me with it (in fear and trembling) using scripture. At first, I didn’t receive it well and was not very appreciative towards this brother for sticking his nose in “my” business. But as the Holy Spirit worked on me, I came to repentance and later let him know that I appreciated his addressing the issue. I knew at that time he was the only one who had the courage to “love” me the way I needed to be loved at that time.

I don’t think this necessarily means ex-communication on an individual level (although the church may need to do that), but I think it certainly means that the relationship at least changes from a trusted brother or sister in the Lord to that of a ministry opportunity. Since we don’t know who God will ultimately “give over to a debased mind”, I think it’s incumbent upon us to treat all people as restorable.

Anyway, as I have wrestled with this issue over the past couple of years, that’s the best conclusions I’ve been able to come up with. I appreciate the discussion and maybe someone much wiser than I will have a better answer for all of us to learn by.

[Guest]

I beleive that if the behavior is effecting the body, it needs to be cut off. If someone is struggling with a personal area though, I don't think it is our job to be confrontational, convicting, or condemning over it. If they aren't struggling over it, discipleship and teaching is in order.
D.

[Guest]

I also liked how this applied to how we should respond in matters.

Col. 3:12 thru17

Therefore as the elect of God, holy beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another, even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do.

But above all these things put on love which is the bond of perfection.

And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body , be thankful.

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs singing with grace in your heats to the Lord.

And whatever you do in word or deed , do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the father through Him.



Glow

[Guest]

Excellent post, Christopher.

Because of a some comments, I'd like to ask about the individual vs. corporate nature of dis-fellowshipping.

I dont think this necessarily means ex-communication on an individual level (although the church may need to do that), but I think it certainly means that the relationship at least changes from a trusted brother or sister in the Lord to that of a ministry opportunity.

I don't know, the only thing I can think of concerning what Paul said is that he was addressing, maybe, the corporate church.

The wording of I Corinthians 5:11 seems to be directed to instructions for individuals, for it says "I wrote to you not to associate...", "... not even to eat with such a one.". Is there anything about the scripture that indicates that "association" and "eating" apply at corporate gatherings, but not to the individual relationships? IMO, it seems reasonable to understand this command as applicable on both the individual and corporatel level.

Disfellowshipping a close friend or family member is harsh. What are your thoughts on the relevance of Luke 12:52? "Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three." (NIV)

[Guest]

Hi Brian,

There are so many other scriptures that you could apply to this situation. It sounds like you or someone else planted a seed with your friend. The plant grew but is currently ensnarled in weeds. You have watered it, fertilized it and given it the light of the Son. Now, it may be up to the plantsman to prune it. Jesus can do that in his time. Water and fertilize this plant as necessary but go plant other gardens, too.

praying for you,

livingink