God is green

[Guest]

At the risk of diverting this thread, these statements make me wonder: Did Jesus see contrition in the hearts of the Roman soldiers and Jewish mockers when He said from the cross, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."?

He may have forseen contrition in the hearts of the Jews.

Peter spoke to them in strong language (recorded in Acts 2)

36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified."
37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"
38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forsaking of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
...
41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
42 They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.

Jesus prayed that the Father would forgive his murderers. But when did the Father forgive them? Was it not on this day that they repented and were baptized in the name of Jesus?

Nowhere in scripture is true forgiveness advocated without repentance. God does not do it, and we are not to do it.

In our day, we have a weak understanding of forgiveness. It now means to let go of our ill feelings toward someone. Of course we should do that whether they repent or not. Indeed, we should look to Christ for the enablement not to have such feelings to begin with.

Jesus said, "If your brother sins against you seven times in a day and says, 'I repent', forgive him."

True forgiveness is a response to repentance. Then our relations with the offender become just as if they had never sinned against us.

[Guest]

So (at the risk of digressing even further), when Jesus asked the Father to forgive them, he wasn't actually speaking about them (as in, the people in front of Him)?

Or was He speaking about the people in front of Him but asking the Father to do something that He knew the Father would not do?

I'm just asking...

[Guest]

Mort:

So (at the risk of digressing even further), when Jesus asked the Father to forgive them, he wasn't actually speaking about them (as in, the people in front of Him)?

Yes, he was actually speaking about them.

Or was He speaking about the people in front of Him but asking the Father to do something that He knew the Father would not do?

No, He knew the Father would forgive them when they repented. The record of that repentance when they were forgiven is found in Acts 2 which I quoted in my last post.

[Guest]

So you're positing that the same Jews that were at Golgotha were at Pentecost?
What about the Romans?

And are you saying that Jesus statement "Father forgive them..." carried an implied "when they repent"?

[Guest]

And...that Jesus knew they would repent? Like, he knew something before it actually happened in reality by people with total free will? That's a lot of foreknowledge coming from you, Paidion.

[Guest]

Paidion, in an earlier post you stated:

True forgiveness is a response to repentance. Then our relations with the offender become just as if they had never sinned against us.

Which you are attempting to reconcile with Jesus' statement from the cross: "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Here's a different viewpoint:

In Matt. 5:43-48, Jesus taught:

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

In context, the perfection Jesus is talking about here seems to have more to do with love than with behavior. Clearly, the Romans and Jews at Golgotha were Jesus' enemies. Forgiveness can be an act of love, in which case it is more of a gift than a transaction such as "You repent first and then I'll forgive."

What if, on the cross, Jesus was "walking His talk" (so to speak) by loving His enemies and demonstrating it in the form of forgiveness for what they were doing to Him?

I recently came upon two of the best definitions for forgiveness that I've ever heard:

"In fact, the power of forgiveness is in the letting go of something "owed", usually to oneself or to another, according to my etymological dictionary. In forgiving, I am neither approving or condemning, I am simply releasing a demand for tribute, or payment for a past transgression. Actually my resentments seem to be demands. I tend to fondle and stroke the hurts, real or imagined, from the past and to continue to demand that tribute be paid to me because of their having happened. And the paying of the tribute, someone's contrition, usually does not satisfy, since the hunger or craving for more persists. If I can forgive, that is to say, to release my demand for tribute, then I am the one who is freed from the hunger or craving for payment." -- Tom Hoskins

"The best definition I've ever heard for forgiveness is giving up the right to hurt someone for the hurt they've done to you." -- Joyce Sams

If God can only forgive us if we first repent, then (at the risk of sounding like a Calvinist) God's ability to forgive is limited by us. I think God's ability to forgive is greater than our ability to repent, just as God's ability to save is greater than our ability to sin.

Does this mean that there is no need for repentance? May it never be! But it is His kindness that leads to repentance (Rom. 2:5). God initiates the process with kindness, mercy, forgiveness -- in a word: Love. We respond with contrition, repentance, adoration, worship, obedience, etc.

So, I would change your statement, which I quoted above, to this:

True repentance is a response to forgiveness.

[Guest]

Dear Paidion,

I had to laugh..."scared stuff"! Heck, some of this stuff can be scary but you are right "scared"!

Catholic Steve

[Guest]

So you're positing that the same Jews that were at Golgotha were at Pentecost?

Yes

What about the Romans?

I think that when Jesus uttered the prayer, "Father forgive them for they don't know what they're doing," he was praying only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. They were the people to whom he was sent, and they were the ones urging his death.

And are you saying that Jesus statement "Father forgive them..." carried an implied "when they repent"?

Yes.

Michelle:

And...that Jesus knew they would repent? Like, he knew something before it actually happened in reality by people with total free will? That's a lot of foreknowledge coming from you, Paidion.

Michelle, does praying that peple will repent and be forgiven imply knowing that they will do so
If so, I will be more fervent in praying that some of my relatives will repent and be forgiven.

Mort:

I recently came upon two of the best definitions for forgiveness that I've ever heard:

In the quotes you shared, Tom Hoskins seems to be saying that forgiveness is the letting go of the demand for restitution for wrongs committed. The fact that person A has not forgiven person B, does not necessarily mean that A is demanding restitution. It may simply mean that he cannot relate to B in the way that he once was able, because of B's non-repentance (no change of heart and mind) which he exhibits by continuing in the same offences.

However, if B truly does repent he will probably desire to make restitution.

Joyce Sams' definition, is not a definition of "forgiveness" at all. It is simply a weakened form of Christ's instruction to do good to those who despitefully use you.

If God can only forgive us if we first repent, then (at the risk of sounding like a Calvinist) God's ability to forgive is limited by us. I think God's ability to forgive is greater than our ability to repent, just as God's ability to save is greater than our ability to sin.

You seem to be saying that God may forgive us, even if we don't repent. Do you really believe that? Do you have a shred of Scriptural evidence that God has ever done so?

So, I would change your statement, which I quoted above, to this:
Quote:

True repentance is a response to forgiveness.

Let me share a true story about false forgiveness reported in an article in the Reader's Digest:

A certain teenage boy had raped and murdered a young girl. A large group of people in the town where the atrocity was committed erected a HUGE sign in the middle of town which read, "WE FORGIVE YOU, JOEY!!!". Tell me what message did that send to Joey?

Do you think that Joey responded to this "forgiveness" by true repentance as in your revised quote?

Or do you think that Joey concluded that the people didn't particularly oppose his behaviour, and so began a search for his next victim?

[Guest]

Paidion,
Please forgive me if my questions are simple-minded. This is a topic I'm very interested in and you have a unique take on things, so I'd love to "pick your brain" a little bit.

...

And are you saying that Jesus statement "Father forgive them..." carried an implied "when they repent"?

Yes.

So there was no immediate granting of forgiveness on Jesus' part, and no receiving forgiveness on the part of the Jews for the next several weeks, correct? It would seem to be a waste of effort for him to utter those words, yet it is recorded that Jesus did. What is your take on why Jesus would say that, especially while in the process of an agonizing death?

Michelle:

And...that Jesus knew they would repent? Like, he knew something before it actually happened in reality by people with total free will? That's a lot of foreknowledge coming from you, Paidion.

Michelle, does praying that people will repent and be forgiven imply knowing that they will do so
If so, I will be more fervent in praying that some of my relatives will repent and be forgiven.

I guess you are correct. Praying that people will repent and be forgiven probably implies that you don't know if they will or won't. Too bad it isn't just that simple.

What I'm putting together from your several posts about the subject is that Jesus was praying to the Father about something that he knew God would do anyway: forgive his murderers as soon as they repented. Do you think he was saying that so the hearers would remember it later when they did repent? Or perhaps it was what "pierced their hearts" when they heard Peter speaking on Pentecost?

Mort:

I recently came upon two of the best definitions for forgiveness that I've ever heard:

In the quotes you shared, Tom Hoskins seems to be saying that forgiveness is the letting go of the demand for restitution for wrongs committed. The fact that person A has not forgiven person B, does not necessarily mean that A is demanding restitution. It may simply mean that he cannot relate to B in the way that he once was able, because of B's non-repentance (no change of heart and mind) which he exhibits by continuing in the same offences.

However, if B truly does repent he will probably desire to make restitution.

Joyce Sams' definition, is not a definition of "forgiveness" at all. It is simply a weakened form of Christ's instruction to do good to those who despitefully use you.

Would you mind giving your definition of forgiveness? I admit that the two referenced by Mort Coyle sound pretty good to me.

And this:

It may simply mean that he cannot relate to B in the way that he once was able, because of B's non-repentance (no change of heart and mind) which he exhibits by continuing in the same offenses.

...Like, say...he keeps doing the same thing...like seven times in one day...and, oh, say... perhaps each time he says, "I repent" so you forgive him. Wouldn't you start to think that by his behavior he is showing a lack of repentance and after the third or fourth time on the same day you might feel justified in withholding forgiveness because of his non-repentance (no change of heart and mind) which he exhibits by continuing in the same offenses? And yet Jesus said to forgive him:
Luke 17:4 "And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, 'I repent,' you shall forgive him."

If God can only forgive us if we first repent, then (at the risk of sounding like a Calvinist) God's ability to forgive is limited by us. I think God's ability to forgive is greater than our ability to repent, just as God's ability to save is greater than our ability to sin.

You seem to be saying that God may forgive us, even if we don't repent. Do you really believe that? Do you have a shred of Scriptural evidence that God has ever done so?

So, I would change your statement, which I quoted above, to this:
Quote:

True repentance is a response to forgiveness.

I dunno. This whole section is what I'm trying to figure out, and have been thinking about for years.

Let me share a true story about false forgiveness reported in an article in the Reader's Digest:

A certain teenage boy had raped and murdered a young girl. A large group of people in the town where the atrocity was committed erected a HUGE sign in the middle of town which read, "WE FORGIVE YOU, JOEY!!!". Tell me what message did that send to Joey?

Do you think that Joey responded to this "forgiveness" by true repentance as in your revised quote?

Or do you think that Joey concluded that the people didn't particularly oppose his behaviour, and so began a search for his next victim?

I realize you posted this for Mort Coyle and I'm butting in here. I'm sorry.

I don't do well on these types of questions -- I'm horrible at predicting what other people may do. What point are you trying to have us reach? Did Joey rape and murder another girl? If so, are you saying the town bears some of the responsibility for publishing its untimely forgiveness? Did Joey respond by leaving that town of seeming lunatics to perpetrate his crimes elsewhere? What??

To CatholicSteve: I'm very sorry that your thread has been hijacked. I'll stop if you want.

[Guest]

Dear Mort,

Forgiveness first requires a transgression, a deliberate sin (Mk 1:4). Then there must be the request for forgiveness (Mk 5 relates maybe not). Hopefully this comes with a contrite heart. Now, if you go to a priest you are doing what the early Christians (Catholic Christians today) did. Either they were forgiven by an Apostle or later a Bishop/priest. Remember, for the Apostles to forgive sin ("Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained." Jn 20:23) they had to "hear" a verbal confession because they did not have mental telemetry abilities.

Lying to a priest at confession is the sin of sacrilege. God, the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit have been lied to. Probably Lk 12:10 (unforgivable sin) and Heb 6:4 and 10:29 respectively will come into play here:

" For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned."

"Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord."

So Luke and Hebrews are talking much the same language...don't mess with God or you will lose your place in heaven, ie, lost salvation. There is unforgivable sin regardless if you are a Born Again Christian, because only certain sins (1 John 5:16 and Luke12) are forgiven. Here are the Christians who have tasted, know and accepted God's Grace (Born Again) yet they "fall away", so God curses them and throws them into fire.

So why not ask for forgiveness, as an early Christian, from Jesus Christ through an Apostle as they did in scripture, ie (2Cor 2:8) "...Whomever you forgive anything, so do I. For indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for you in the presence of Christ...". The Christians at Corinth did. Paul confirms the Apostles ability to forgive sin in 2 Cor 5:18-20 "....And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God." Paul is very precise here in that the Apostles were given the Ministry of Reconciliation and the sinners reconcile themselves through them, through Christ (not directly to Christ, but through the Apostles). Paul tells them to be reconciled through "us".

Remember Matt 9:2-8, the story of the man being healed of his physical paralysis and also of his sins? Do you remember that the crowds were taken-aback by the fact that men were given the ability to do the same...."When the crowds saw this they were struck with awe and glorified God who had given such authority to men. (That is plural MEN, not "authority to A MAN" singular). This would affirm the Apostles healing and forgiving sin...yes, everything is through God. Now, the only problem is that Protestant Christians fail to recognize any succession of the Apostles.

Bah, humbug. Early Christians never believed this, right? Wrong. Cyprian (approx 250AD) was a very early Christian who died for his faith as a martyr. Cyprian's full name was Thascius Caecilius Cyprianus. He was an educated, wealthy pagan before he was baptized as a Christian where he is known for his prolific writing. One writing was about God's Grace in defense of the Christian heretic Donatus' preachings. Cyprian was not exactly a lukewarm Christian. Cyprian's conversion was so much influenced by the Christian "Caecilius" that Cyprian took his name as his middle name. Caecilius was also a converted Christian that gave up his wealth for the faith. So Cyprian was surrounded by like-minded Christians and was well known for his love of Jesus and the Church. Cyprian wrote ""I entreat you, beloved brethren, that each one should confess his own sins while he is still in this world - while his confession can still be received and while the satisfaction and remission made by the priests are still pleasing to the Lord.". So Cyprian and many other Christians wrote apologetic responses in defense of the faith when there were heretical Christians running around (Donatus, etc). These early Christian writings can be found all over the place. When Cyprian wrote about confessing sins to a priest, why isn't there some Christian response to this if it were a heretical doctrine? Can someone find such writings at the time of these early Christians like Cyprian? Not.

"Father, forgive Mort, for he knows not what he does."


Dear Paidian,

God can do anything. I speak of contrition and repentance, but I do not think we can see contrition (from the paralytic) when Jesus/God forgave the sin of the paralytic dropped through the roof . No such action appears to be related to the reader that the paralyzed man (we know nothing of the scope of his condition but he did not speak) was verbally/visually contrite. Jesus actually forgave the paralyzed man because of the "faith" of the others that brought him and lowered him down.

Numerous passages relate to Jesus' ability to heal physical afflictions without the presence of the afflicted person or their faith, but rather the faith of the one asking for it. The Book of Mark pulls many of these stories together now with God not only healing the physical problem, but healing the spiritual problem by forgiving their sins!

Dear MichelleM,

You say... "Like, he knew something before it actually happened in reality by people with total free will? That's a lot of foreknowledge coming from you, Paidion". I don't think Paidion is saying that he has such foreknowledge. God has such foreknowledge. God already knew what I was going to pen and what you are thinking as you read this. You appear to minimize God's ability to know anything and everything....free will or not.


Dear Mort,

I think you are trying to hard with forgiveness by seeking worldly opinions on a definition that scripture is abundant on. One is simple: Acts 10:43 "All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

Your suggested change to Paidian's remark to "true repentance is a response to forgiveness" would be a stretch. Repentance can certainly occur with forgiveness, ie, I forgive the hateful criminal that stabs me and he then becomes repentant from this unexpected and Godly response. I think this happens a lot. But I think "true repentance" comes prior to forgiveness. That is what God is looking for and makes Him really smile. That is real "free will".

Christ's Peace to all, Catholic Steve