Response to Steve Gregg's article-Is Tithing For Christians?

[Guest]

Sean,
I don't know why you say I continuously use Malachi 3, when I can't remember the last time I used it in this thread to tell you the truth.

I will gladly comment about how it is only mentioned that Abraham paid tithes once. This is one of the weakest arguments you all have. Does the absence of mention that he tithed other than this mean that he did not. Do we also have every prayer that Abraham prayed recorded. If there are only 15 of his prayers mentioned does that then mean he only prayed to God 15 times. This is a real reach for your point of view.
I honestly don't see how you can conclude that he only did this once because only one instance is mentioned. Wouldn't you agree it is a weak argument you are making in favor of the cessation of the tithing requirement?

[Guest]

Mort said:

However, even if one did stretch the metaphor to accomodate the application of Levitical tithing laws to the New Testament church, all that would yield is, as Sean said, giving to one-another within the church.

We attend a small (about 100 attendees, including children) independent congregation. We regard all who take Jesus as Lord and savior as our brothers and sisters. About 25% of the offering is taken off the top for missions, including a charitable mission among Palistinians. Probably $20,000 has gone to help poor people in the past year, including an offering for Katrina victims.

Also we took an offering in the past to give to the pastor of a much smaller church in our town.

And

Offerings were not used to pay for buildings or minister’s salaries. Paul was adamant about working with his own hands and not taking money from those he was ministering to (1 Cor. 9, 2 Cor. 6, 2 Cor. 11, 2 Thess. 3). Paul used the money he earned from making tents to meet his own needs and those of his companions.

Who supported the Apostles and missionaries other than Paul? Do not his statements necessarily imply he was the only Apostle who supported himself? Were the other Apostles wrong? Are we not commanded to "share all things with those who teach us"? Couldn't this include a pastor whose teaching is for building up disciples?

Church buildings are neither advocated nor condemned; are they thus forbidden? Our buildings are all paid for, are not extravagant (well we do have a steeple, which I was not for, but I do not have to have my way about everything ) and are used for worship, classes, a community feeding program for the elderly, and also have been used by the boy scouts and home schoolers at no charge. Is this wrong?

And

In a typical modern-day Evangelical church, 85% of the tithes collected are used to pay for the building and pastoral salaries. The other 15% is divvied up for donuts, coffee, office supplies, advertising, etc. The percentage that actually goes to the poor is miniscule

This is apalling if true. What is the source for your data? I do know of one large independent Christian Church in Louisville, Kentucky that raised something like $400,000 in a weekend offering that was taken by members to New York City after 9/11 and distributed to those in need. I'm sure many other congregations did similar things. This would be totally impractical to carry out on an individual basis. Give it to a para-church organization you say? Where do you find those in scripture? Wouldn't they be forbidden since, like church buildings, they aren't mentioned?

I say all this having neither argued for or against the tithe, my interest on this thread is in the efficacy and scriptural practice of giving corporately, as I have posted comments before that seem to go unanswered (perhaps unnoticed?). We in the West have a strong individualistic tendency where in the East they are much more group oriented. Perhaps this explains some of our difficulty.

If someone wants to tithe that's fine with me. My problem would be if they were unwilling to give one cent more when the Spirit was calling them to do so.

[_Mort_Coyle]

I am honestly curious to what you think that this verse means.........

Heb 7:8
8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
(KJV)

I've really not looked deeply into it, and am honestly wanting to know what your thoughts are on the meaning of Jesus still receiving tithes from there.

It might be easier to understand if it weren't in 16th Century Olde English, but that's a topic for another discussion.

We first need to look at 7:8 within the context of the entire Book of Hebrews.

Hebrews was most likely written to Jewish Christians who were being persuaded to revert back to non-Christian Judaism (perhaps due to persecution). The underlying question in Hebrews seems to be, "Now that you have the fulfillment of the Covenant, why go backwards?" The central theme of Hebrews is the New Covenant replacing the Old. This point reaches its apex in 8:13 where the writer states:

"By calling this covenant "new", he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear".

Notice, by the way, that the "first" covenent was disappearing, but wasn't quite gone yet. The recipients of this letter were Jewish Christians who still kept the Levitical Law, went to the Temple, etc. In a few short decades the Temple would be destroyed and the Levitical system would come to an end.

And in 9:15:

"For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance - now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant".

Hebrews shows that the types and shadows and promises of the Old Covenant are fulfilled in Christ. Including:
The Land (3:12 - 4:11)
A High Priest (4:14, 8:1, 10:21)
An Alter (13:10)
The Fulfillment of Abraham's Hope (6:13-20)
A Temple/Tabernacle (10:19)
Mount Zion (12:22)
A Eternal Kingdom (12:28 - see Haggai 2:6)

In chapters 3 & 4, Jesus is shown to be the true Joshua who leads His people into the true promised land.

In 4:14 Jesus is described as the great high priest. This presented a problem for the early Jewish Christians though because priests had to be from the tribe of Levi. Jesus was from the house of David, (tribe of Judah), which qualified Him for Kingship but disqualified Him from being High Priest.

In chapter 5 the writer of Hebrews brings in Melchizedek as a non-Levite High Priest whom even the Levites (in Abraham's loins) gave honor to. Further the writer references Psalm 110:4 (in verse 6) to show that Mel was actually a type (or foreshadow) of Jesus. This solves the problem of Jesus being the great eternal High Priest; not in the order of the Levites, but in the order of Melchizedek.

The writer comes back to this theme at the end of chapter 6 and on into chapters 7 and 8. Again the writer points out that Melchizedek (whom he is making the case was a foreshadow of Jesus) was honored by Abraham:

"Just think how great he was: Even the patriarch Abraham gave him a tenth of the plunder!" v. 4

Notice that this is described as a one-time event (as described in Gen 14).
The writer of Hebrews doesn't say "Even the patriarch Abraham gave tithes to him!" The point is not the tenth, it's what the tenth represented, which is that Abraham honored a non-Levite High Priest and therefore it's OK for the Jews to whom Hebrews is written to accept Jesus as High Priest (among other things) even though He is not a Levite.

You can argue (and you have) that nowhere does it explicitly state that Abraham didn't pay regular tithes to Mel, but that's arguing a positive result from a negative premise, which is a logical fallacy. Let me give you an example: I believe that God is actually a dolphin. Why? Because nowhere in the Bible does it say that God isn't a dolphin.
(No, I don't really believe that! I'm just making a point. But if I did believe it, I'd write a book called "The Porpoise Driven Church" and make millions!).

I don't know how every church does it, but our tithes generally go to our main headquarters where they are allocated where needed.

Have you ever investigated how those tithes are spent? What percentage goes to the poor vs. buildings, salaries, administrative overhead, etc., etc.?

I don't know why you say I continuously use Malachi 3, when I can't remember the last time I used it in this thread to tell you the truth.

It's because, as I pointed out in an earlier post, you keep using the phrase "rob God", which is a direct reference to Malachi 3.

Homer,

I appriate your points and I want to make it clear that my hot button isn't so much tithing as it is people who try to teach that tithing is Biblical and, worse yet, necessary in order to receive God's blessing. If a believer or community of believers decide that they want to give 10% to their local church, then more power to 'em. Hopefully the money will be used in a way that honors God and reflects His values. It sounds like your church does.

If a group of believers decides that they want to free up one (or some) of their people to devote more time to ministry by supporting them, and/or if a group of believers wants to have a permanent building to meet in, I might question whether or not it's wise stewardship, but I wouldn't condemn it as being "un-biblical".

Likewise, if a believer or community of believers want to support a missionary, then praise God. It is worth pointing out, however, that the Jewish rabbis of Jesus & Paul's day were not "full time". Ancient Jews believed that it was shameful to earn money from God's word. Paul's attitude was very typical.

"This is apalling if true. What is the source for your data?"

I first came across these figures when I was considering planting a church in the Vineyard movement. The numbers came straight out of the Vineyard church planter's manual. Furthermore, their goal is for a church planter to be occupying a facility and receiving a full-time salary within two years. Since then, I've found these percentages to be pretty consistent. Here's an article, for example, by a church growth consulting firm which posits that less than 3 percent of the average church's budget goes towards programs that help either poor members or the needy in the community: http://www.living-stones.com/money.htm

I'd challenge you to research it for yourself and see if these numbers are off the mark.

BTW, last night I stumbled upon a site that has some very interesting articles regarding tithing, including a book that you can download for free which seems to be very thorough (I downloaded it, but haven't had time to read it yet). Here's the link: http://prayershack.freeservers.com/tithing.html[/url]

[Guest]

I will gladly comment about how it is only mentioned that Abraham paid tithes once. This is one of the weakest arguments you all have. Does the absence of mention that he tithed other than this mean that he did not. Do we also have every prayer that Abraham prayed recorded. If there are only 15 of his prayers mentioned does that then mean he only prayed to God 15 times. This is a real reach for your point of view.

Aaron, The point of the New Covenant is that it is of the heart and is different then the Old Covenant which is of the letter of the law and Paul said that "the letter kills." It's expressly contrasted with the Old Covenant and it implies that if we choose to follow it we need to not do it ritualistically or legalistically but with heart felt desire. Therefore this heartfelt desire does'nt square with a rule mandating 10% , they don't reconcile. And Jesus did'nt apply it to new believers in his commands nor did his apostles which is significant. Paul did say to "present our bodies as a living sacrifice to the Lord" which is to be willing to give everything over if called upon. Finally between Christ and his Apostles they gave 53 commands and not once did they specify tithing to new believers.

[Guest]

Sean,
I don't know why you say I continuously use Malachi 3, when I can't remember the last time I used it in this thread to tell you the truth.

Fair enough. It was the text you were using to show how Steve was advocating "robbing God".

I will gladly comment about how it is only mentioned that Abraham paid tithes once. This is one of the weakest arguments you all have. Does the absence of mention that he tithed other than this mean that he did not. Do we also have every prayer that Abraham prayed recorded. If there are only 15 of his prayers mentioned does that then mean he only prayed to God 15 times. This is a real reach for your point of view.
I honestly don't see how you can conclude that he only did this once because only one instance is mentioned. Wouldn't you agree it is a weak argument you are making in favor of the cessation of the tithing requirement?

I stand by what the text states.

Heb 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; 2To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

Heb 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

Abraham's slaughter of the kings was a one time event. Abraham gave a tenth of his spoils from that one event to Melchisedec. To say Abraham paid tithes at other times is reading into the text something that is not there.

That's all I'm saying.

Even if you believe Abraham did regularly pay tithes, this does not translate into a requirement for us. We are to obey all things Christ commanded, not try to figure out what we have to do in addition to what Christ commanded. My concern is legalism. If you feel you should tithe then you should do it. But it's another issue entirely to "lean on" others, putting them under compusion to give in the same way that you give. As you said earlier, we should seek God's advice. Giving should be done after prayerful consideration.

Are you afraid I (or Steve or others here) are saying not to give at all? You said yourself you give more than 10%, even though you seem to be arguing for the 10% standard.

Mort_Coyle,
Just to be clear, those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel. Paul worked with his hands but also was single and could do this, hoever Paul did say it was his right if he so chose it (to not work, that is).

[Guest]

I don't know why you say I continuously use Malachi 3, when I can't remember the last time I used it in this thread to tell you the truth.

I think what they are referring to are the times where you say that others are robbing God by not tithing in the manner you think they should. This would be a reference to Malachi 3, even though you are not actually quoting the entire verse.

[Guest]

Thank you for all your comments.
So many of you say that the tithe offering of Abraham only happened once since there is only one specific tithe offering noted in scripture.
He may have only done so once but I wouldn't believe it on the basis of it only being mentioned once in scripture. If I were to do that I would have to consider that Abel only offered a sacrifice to the Lord once,

You can argue (and you have) that nowhere does it explicitly state that Abraham didn't pay regular tithes to Mel, but that's arguing a positive result from a negative premise, which is a logical fallacy. Let me give you an example: I believe that God is actually a dolphin. Why? Because nowhere in the Bible does it say that God isn't a dolphin.
(No, I don't really believe that! I'm just making a point. But if I did believe it, I'd write a book called "The Porpoise Driven Church" and make millions!).

It was said that my argument was similar to arguing that God is a dolphin because it doesn't say he isn't a dolphin. To me, honestly, folks, that is precisely what you are doing. You are saying that since it doesn't say that Abraham offered tithes more than once that it is very unlikely or impossible that he did. I am not saying that he for sure did and I am definitely not saying that he for sure did not pay tithes as a regular thing in his life. You all seem to be saying that since it's only mentioned once that he definitely did not ever again pay tithes. Am I correct in my assumption of your positions?

The whole point of this is that it preceded the law. WHether it was once in Abrahams life and once in Jacob's - it doesn't matter, it happened prior to the law.

The tithe is not for the Levites, it was just used that way because that is how God specified it for the nation of Israel at the time, but the tithe is for the Lord - it is His, not as you all have said, the Levites'.

Lev 27:30
30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD.
(KJV)

Gen 28:22
22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.
(KJV)

Mal 3:8
8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
(KJV)

Heb 7:8
8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
(KJV)


If you all can - will you please comment on how the tithe is not the Lord's but the Levites' still today.
Steve ought to jump in on that question, since he insists that it only belongs to the Levites and if we can find any Levitical priests for him to give his tithe to he'll gladly do it (which he said jokingly earlier in the thread)......It seems obvious to me the tithe is the Lord's!!!

I am not advocating only tithing. I tithe and I offer my offering sometimes more sometimes less, but always 10% which is what the Lord requires of the greatest to the least of us. It is His, the rest is from our ability to give and our desires to give.

[Guest]

I don't think this point has gone unaddressed (or any other point relevant to the tithe), but I will answer one more time, since I was asked.

Is the tithe the Lord's? Yes. In fact, all ten tithes are the Lord's. He simply required, at one time, that that one of them be given to the Levites for their maintenance. Before there were Levites, there was no obvious person(s) for people like Adam, Enoch, Noah, etc. to give the tithe to.

The question has never been whether Abraham and Jacob ever paid tithes more than once. The question has been, was the tithe ever commanded, prior to the law. If we restrict our inquiry to the data provided in scripture, the answer is "no."

One can argue either direction from the silence of scripture. One could claim (if there seemed good warrant on other grounds) that Abraham and Jacob paid tithes regularly, and they did so because God commanded it. But is there warrant?

The only warrant I am aware of is the assumption of the perpetuity of the tithing obligation—both before and after the law. Since there is no biblical evidence to support that assumption, there is no reason to impose that particular law upon people who do not live under the law, whether before Moses' time, or since the coming of Jesus and the establishment of the New Covenant.

[Guest]

Fair enough Steve,
You are correct, in my view, that this can be argued from silence in either direction.
I suppose we just will have to see this in different ways. I think we have all labored this to the ultimate point.

Let me just say - as I have in times past - that it is obvious to me that the tithe is the Lord's, not the Levites, not the pastors, not the paypal for Steve Gregg, it's the Lord's. That is obvious from scripture. And although you say that you have always said it belongs to the Lord and not the Levites let me remind you of what you said in your first post in this thread.

It is repeatedly said that when God gives a command in the Old Testament, it remains intact unless that specific command is repealed in the New Testament. This would apparently mean that the parents of a rebellious son should bring that child into the public square and commence stoning him. On the other hand, there is no command in either testament about tithing other than that tithes should be brought to the Levites. I will gladly give 10% of my income to the Levites, if you can point them out to me.

To not give the tithe is said to be robbing God, not robbing the Levites, not robbing the pastor, the Katrina victims, the 9/11 victims, etc. etc.
So it would seem to me that the Lord is owed a tithe. He specifically told the Jews where it went. He said it goes to the storehouse. I understand that to be the place where you worship congregationally in today's equivalent, many of you do not see it that way. Fine. But you still must give the Lord the 10% He said belongs to Him.

I totally agree that 100% of what we take care of is not our's but the Lord's and we are just put here as stewards of all of it, and anytime the Lord asks us for anything - even if it is 100% of all we have - to give it away or whatever, we are required to do so.

I believe he has asked us perpetually for 10% of what he's entrusted to us to always be given directly back to Him.

You have all been asking me to show you where the tithe is advocated in the NT- I would love to see where it's condemned. I see animal sacrifices condemned (some say they can't see that in Hebrews, I'd conclude you are trying not to see it) - I see stoning a person for sinning condemned. These are two points you have brought up that we should still be doing if we should still tithe.

But I cannot at all find tithing condemned. The last thing with any effect the Bible said concerning tithing is that the tithe is the Lord's and to deny Him the tithe is to rob Him.

I'll (try to) not post any more in this thread, as I have worn the subject out, but that is my stand on it, and your posts, while making me think, have not changed my view of it one iota. Thank you all for the interesting discussion anyhow, though.

Aaron

[Guest]

Before we continue debating about tithing, lets figure out what tithing is.

If we look back in the law, it is not very clear how tithing worked. We have three tithes, one for the Levites, one for the festival, and one for the poor in your area. Read the passages about the tithes and try to prove that it works out to a 23.3% average. It is far from clear. Maybe the Levitical tithe and the poor tithe are the same, and just stored until delivered every third year. There are many other possible scenarios. Read Lev 27, Numbers 18, Deut 12, 14, & 26 and THINK.

Here is what is clear. Tithing in the Old Covenant was from the increase of the LAND of Israel (Deut 14:22&23, Lev 27:30-32). You could NOT tithe money (Deut 14:24-26). The LAST tenth was the tithe, not the first (Lev 27:32). If you only had nine sheep to pass under the rod, you tithed zero.

I know this next argument is an argument from silence, but it is based on what is commanded. You never find Israelites tithing anything other than the INCREASE of the LAND. They only tithed sheep, cattle, wheat, etc. Never fish or money or tables.

Just to mix it up a bit more, note that Abraham did not even tithe what was his to Melchizedek. He tithed the rescued possesions that belonged to the Kings of Sodom, Gomorrah, etc. Not at all similar to the Old Covenant.

What is being advocated in this thread as required Christian tithing is completely unrelated to the Old Testament tithe or even the Abrahamic tithe as demonstrated above (aside from the percentage). Therefore it is not logical to appeal to the Old Testament scriptures as a basis for tithing to our local institution. The burden of proof must fall on the people who are trying to re-invent tithing, and then import it to the New Testament. They are the ones arguing from silence.

The New Testament epistles are full of references to how we are to give. None of them say 10%. It does mention that we give all when we repent and surrender. If 100% of what we have is the Lords, how can we give him 10%? We can only give to him if we are holding back. We are called to be God's stewards. A good steward uses the masters resources to feed, shelter, and clothe himself, but he is to use them primarily for the master's profit. What would your boss say if you used his money to make a profit, and then offered him 10% of the profits? You would considered a poor steward! Instead you give your boss all the profits and he provides you with what you need to live (if he is a good boss like our God is). This is the New Testament example of giving.

How do we give 100% to God? We are to support those who teach us, the poor, widows, orphans, and those who forward the Gospel. There are also logistical costs to forwarding the Gospel. It may be a building, or radio air time, or a cup of coffee. It is not wrong to use God's money for that. We are to expect to be supported by our own working hands. If somebody helps us out, it is a bonus. It should free us up to spend more time serving God.

Glenn