Reconciling the "God of the OT" with Jesus.

Post by **_Derek** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:21 am

I have a freind who just can't seem to get over the idea that the OT and NT present two different, and contradictory views of God.

Like many people, he sees the actions by God in warfare, (killing of whole people groups), punishments inflicted by Sabbath breaking (for picking up sticks, etc), conflicting with the ethic that Jesus puts forth (non-violence, love your enemies, etc) in the NT.

I have tried to show him that things are not this way, but I have been unsucessful in convincing him thus far.

I would really appreciate it, if you guys could offer me some advice on how you answer this "problem".

I would also like recommendations of any sermons, lectures, articles, books, etc. dealing with this topic.

Thanks!!

Post by **_Ely** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:58 pm

Some things to discuss with him:

- Ananias and Saphira
- The Corinthian deaths due to improper partaking of Lord's Supper

etc..

Post by **_Derek** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:53 pm

Ely wrote:Some things to discuss with him:

- Ananias and Saphira
- The Corinthian deaths due to improper partaking of Lord's Supper

etc..

Well, it's not so much the adult deaths in general, but the deaths of "every man, woman, and child" that bother him. Even if I can convince him of the guilt of certain adults, how do I show him that it is just for God to kill babies?

I usually say that God is the giver of life and can take it as He sees fit. That these people were evil, commiting child sacrifices, etc. and that He needed to do away with them to protect Israel so the line of the Messiah could be pure, etc. I have told him that killing the children could be seen as an act of mercy because they were dieing "innocent" and that if they were to grow up in that culture they would lose this innoncence.

I understand that God judges whole nations, but what of the individuals in the nation and the different levels of guilt. He say that "every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge" in Jer. 31:30. How does this square with the wiping out of nations? (Especially children, unless the Calvinist understanding of original sin is correct).

Thanks,

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:54 pm

One thing to consider is that the OT covers thousands of years and for the great majority of the time God was merciful toward people who constantly sinned. The instances of judgement were few and far between considering the length of time involved. The NT only covers a few decades for the most part.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:01 pm

How does this square with the wiping out of nations? (Especially children, unless the Calvinist understanding of original sin is correct

IMO the Israelites were a special case because at that time they were in effect the kingdom of God and they had to be set apart and they had to reach the promised land for the ultimate salvation of many more. And God knew if the Caananites mixed with the Israelites they would get corrupted, which they did.

Post by **_Derek** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:47 pm

STEVE7150 wrote:One thing to consider is that the OT covers thousands of years and for the great majority of the time God was merciful toward people who constantly sinned. The instances of judgement were few and far between considering the length of time involved. The NT only covers a few decades for the most part.

Thanks bro. Good point. However, most of this fellows problems occur during the lifetime of Moses, and maybe up through Joshua, which isn't all that long.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:59 pm

Thanks bro. Good point. However, most of this fellows problems occur during the lifetime of Moses, and maybe up through Joshua, which isn't all that long.

Right but the point is that this was'nt a recurring thing that God did therefore this was a special case and had to do with keeping His kingdom set apart. God decided the whole Canaan nation was evil including everyone even if we don't understand why it included women and children.
If your friend can't trust God on this then there's a problem.
My own theory is that Satan was involved although he is not mentioned , i think the whole Canaan nation was demonized but it's just speculation on my part.

Post by **_Derek** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:16 pm

Right but the point is that this was'nt a recurring thing that God did therefore this was a special case and had to do with keeping His kingdom set apart

I see. Good point.

If your friend can't trust God on this then there's a problem.

I agree, but he says he can't trust God because of these things. I can't tell him he just has to "trust God" to understand these things, when it is these things that are keeping him from doing that in the first place.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:20 pm

I agree, but he says he can't trust God because of these things. I can't tell him he just has to "trust God" to understand these things, when it is these things that are keeping him from doing that in the first place.

OK so why would God want Canaan destroyed? If God is love then there must be something other then the physical world going on.
Consider this "The seventy returned with joy saying Lord, in your name even the demons submit to us! He said to them " I watched Satan fall from heaven like a flash of lightning. See i have given you authority to tread on snakes and scorpions , and over the power OF THE ENEMY , and nothing will hurt you." Luke 10.17
10.23 "Blessed are the eyes that SEE WHAT YOU SEE, for i tell you that MANY PROPHETS and kings desired to SEE WHAT YOU SEE but did not see it" Satan oppossed the advancing of the kingdom of God , that's why it's said in the NT it takes violent men to expand it.
Moses and Joshua and the OT prophets could'nt see Satan but Jesus revealed him in the NT almost immediately, WHY? Because Satan was a big deal in the OT but not seen by the OT writers.
IMHO Satan and his demons forced the Israelites to have to destroy Canaan because they did'nt have the power to cast out demons.

Post by **_Paidion** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:31 pm

The primary truth is that Jesus is the Logos (expression) of God. He was the One who revealed what the Father is truly like. He was "the exact image of His [the Father's] essence" Heb 1:3

Jesus said, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father." John 14:9

Surely He meant that He was Another exactly like the Father.

Jesus was filled with love and compassion toward people while He was here on earth. The Father also, is filled with love and compassion toward people. Any characteristic of Jesus you can find, the same may be truly said of the Father.

So if the Father, in the OT, appears to be a killer of people for virtually no reason (e.g. killing the fellow who attempted to steady the ark) -----
instructing the Hebrews to kill whole people groups including the innocent, then we must ask ourselves, "Would Jesus have done these things?" If the answer is "no" then we must conclude that there is something wrong.

I am going to give a solution which almost all Christians will reject. But I
am going to give it anyway. I think that Moses sometimes misunderstood the revelation of God.

Please recall how Jesus dealt with the case of the woman caught in adultery. Then ask yourself whether He would have done what Yahweh supposedly did in the following account. And bear in mind this was not what was done to a woman caught in adultery. Any woman suspected by her husband of committing adultery, due to a fit of jealousy on his part, was made to drink polluted, bacteria-filled water as a test of her faithfulness:

And the LORD said to Moses, "Say to the people of Israel, If any man’s wife goes astray and acts unfaithfully against him, if a man lies with her carnally, and it is hidden from the eyes of her husband, and she is undetected though she has defiled herself, and there is no witness against her, since she was not taken in the act; and if the spirit of jealousy comes upon him, and he is jealous of his wife who has defiled herself; or if the spirit of jealousy comes upon him, and he is jealous of his wife, though she has not defiled herself; then the man shall bring his wife to the priest, and bring the offering required of her, a tenth of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it and put no frankincense on it, for it is a cereal offering of jealousy, a cereal offering of remembrance, bringing iniquity to remembrance. "And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the LORD; and the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel, and take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put it into the water. And the priest shall set the woman before the LORD, and unbind the hair of the woman’s head, and place in her hands the cereal offering of remembrance, which is the cereal offering of jealousy. And in his hand the priest shall have the water of bitterness that brings the curse. Then the priest shall make her take an oath, saying, ‘If no man has lain with you, and if you have not turned aside to uncleanness, while you were under your husband’s authority, be free from this water of bitterness that brings the curse.
But if you have gone astray, though you are under your husband’s authority, and if you have defiled yourself, and some man other than your husband has lain with you, then’ (let the priest make the woman take the oath of the curse, and say to the woman) ‘the LORD make you an execration and an oath among your people, when the LORD makes your thigh fall away and your body swell; may this water that brings the curse pass into your bowels and make your body swell and your thigh fall away.’ And the woman shall say, ‘Amen, Amen.’

"Then the priest shall write these curses in a book, and wash them off into the water of bitterness; and he shall make the woman drink the water of bitterness that brings the curse, and the water that brings the curse shall enter into her and cause bitter pain. And the priest shall take the cereal offering of jealousy out of the woman’s hand, and shall wave the cereal offering before the LORD and bring it to the altar; and the priest shall take a handful of the cereal offering, as its memorial portion, and burn it upon the altar, and afterward shall make the woman drink the water.
And when he has made her drink the water, then, if she has defiled herself and has acted unfaithfully against her husband, the water that brings the curse shall enter into her and cause bitter pain, and her body shall swell, and her thigh shall fall away, and the woman shall become an execration among her people. But if the woman has not defiled herself and is clean, then she shall be free and shall conceive children.

This is the law in cases of jealousy, when a wife, though under her husband’s authority, goes astray and defiles herself, or when the spirit of jealousy comes upon a man and he is jealous of his wife; then he shall set the woman before the LORD, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law. The man shall be free from iniquity, but the woman shall bear her iniquity. Numbers 5:11-31

I have to confess that I don't believe Yahweh ever said these words to Moses or instituted this "test" of a suspected wife. I think these were entirely Moses' thoughts, and He ascribed them to "the LORD". It reminds me of a lot of people running around today, declaring that "The LORD told me this" or "The Lord told me that."