Prove to me that Spirit exists

[Guest]

This is the question of my co-worker last Friday: " Prove to me that spirit exist"

I told him that spirit can not be tested by science because spirit is not a matter. Does anyone knows how a spirit can be proven to exist?

[Guest]

Unless your co-worker accepts the testimony of near death experiences, this questions enters the realm of philosophy. A number of philosophers have given great arguments on the existence of the immaterial part of a person. Greg Koukl gives an argument at the following link:

http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=6771

The question one has to ponder when facing this issue is: What makes a person a person? Is it our brain? Koukl argues that if this is your answer then you must conclude that people with brain damage somehow cease to be people. Is it our body? If that's the case, we're in trouble because our bodies are constantly changing... with each molecule being replaced every seven years.

The most obvious answer to this philisophical question is that something animates the physical body. The brain is just a lump of matter that fires off chemical reactions... so where do thoughts come from? In what realm do thoughts exist? Thoughts are immaterial so how can a lump of matter produce them? Our physical bodies are animated by something immaterial and that same "thing" is what produces thoughts and personhood. So perhaps you can approach it this way... next time your friend asks you to prove that souls exist, ask him to prove that thoughts exist. Tell him you want to put a thought into a test tube and examine it.

[Guest]

Hello, JC,

What makes a person a person?

It may be argued that "personhood" is a human intellectual construct - a category manufactured by the human mind to facilitate thought - and thus its articulation revolves around human perception and projection, and needs not correspond to essential reality.

Is it our body? If that's the case, we're in trouble because our bodies are constantly changing... with each molecule being replaced every seven years.

Here we wrestle with the enigma of time: are we the same person we were twelve years ago? The answer does not have to be "yes." Not only materially, but also in terms of personality and what is termed "spirituality," many of us are not the same persons we were even as younger adults. The persons we are exist only in the present. Beyond this - the present is the only place where persons exist.

The brain is just a lump of matter that fires off chemical reactions... so where do thoughts come from? In what realm do thoughts exist? Thoughts are immaterial so how can a lump of matter produce them?

Hmmm.... I am not a brainologist, but if my understanding of things is correct (based on what I've seen on TV ), the brain fires off different reactions when it is thinking about different things.

It seems prejudicial to me to imagine that chemical-electrical constructs cannot preserve sensory data and reorganize it in useful ways. This is what thought is - the reflective organization of sensory data, whether externally-sourced or internally-sourced. Such can be accomplished by material signals.


Shlamaa,
Emmet

[Guest]

Thanks for the replies....................

[Guest]

It seems prejudicial to me to imagine that chemical-electrical constructs cannot preserve sensory data and reorganize it in useful ways. This is what thought is - the reflective organization of sensory data, whether externally-sourced or internally-sourced. Such can be accomplished by material signals.

Actually, such cannot be accomplished by material signals if we're talking about modern empirical science, which is why I said it enters the realm of philosophy. There are certain areas of the brain that correspond to distinct emotions and sensations, such as pain and pleasure. We can observe the realease of endorphins or the pain censor in the brain that triggers an electrical surge down the spinal cord. These are physiological reactions and thoughts are something entirely seperate. A thought may stimulate an endorphin release, but the thought itself isn't a physical property of matter. Thoughts are metaphysics and can't be explained by naturalism. Like it or not, the notion of thought (and, by extension, our soul) is argued in the realm of philosophy and not empirical science.

[Guest]

Thanks JC...........

[Guest]

Hello, JC,

Thank you for your response.

Actually, such cannot be accomplished by material signals if we're talking about modern empirical science, which is why I said it enters the realm of philosophy.

As I said, I'm not a brainologist; I'm rather out of my field. Can you direct me to modern empirical science that indicates such cannot be accomplished by material signals? (Or perhaps I should say "by electro-chemical means"? Something like that...)

Like it or not, the notion of thought (and, by extension, our soul) is argued in the realm of philosophy and not empirical science.

Again, I'm out of my arena, but isn't there a field of cognitive neuroscience?


Shlamaa,
Emmet

[Guest]

As I said, I'm not a brainologist; I'm rather out of my field. Can you direct me to modern empirical science that indicates such cannot be accomplished by material signals? (Or perhaps I should say "by electro-chemical means"? Something like that...)

Again, I'm out of my arena, but isn't there a field of cognitive neuroscience?

Hey, I'm a writer and a filmmaker so this isn't my area either. I'm just quoting things I've read over the years and have pondered in my quiet times. As a filmmaker, I must be knowledgeable about things like photo-chemical reactions, optics, mathmatics (focal lengths, planes of vision, etc), particle and wave properties, and things like that. So chemistry and physics are my mainstay, not neurology and biology.

Having said all that, my limited knowledge of the emperical sciences has convinced me that thoughts cannot be the product of matter. While there are mystics out there claiming our thoughts are energy, this obviously hasn't been proven. My understanding is that certain areas of the brain correspond to distinct sensations and emotions. Thoughts aren't made up of material property or matter but sensations and such are merely biological. Feeling pain or euphoria isn't the same thing as pondering the evidence for a soul, for example.

[Guest]

Because of my personal interest in this topic, I took a post-graduate course in philosophy called "Philosophy of Mind". It dealt with the views of several philophers during the 70s who supposed and tried to give evidence that mental events are no more than brain events.

Although I believed, before taking the course, that mental events are a function of brain events, I did believe in some sort of "Metaphysical Ego" which transcended the physical. I had to write an essay on this matter, upon which my whole success in this course depended (together with an oral presentation). I tried to show the existence of the "metaphysical ego", even though such a concept was not in agreement with the philosophy of mind views were was current in the 70s.

The weaknesses in my presentation were shot down by the professor, and I was to rethink my premises and to write an essay which would be free of logical errors and weaknesses in presentation. After doing this, my paper was given a "B" with the final comment: "Much improved. Better understanding and presentation, but still wrong". The comment about being "wrong", of course, simply meant that the professor was not convinced of the existence of the metaphysical ego.

I suppose some who have read the above might think of "the soul" as the "metaphysical ego", but the concept of "the soul" usually refers to a personal or individual entity which can exist apart from the body. This was not the concept I was trying to bring forth. For, as Emmet pointed out, we may not be "the same person" we were when we were younger (whatever "same person" might mean). However, there is a personal identity which somehow endures no matter how our personhood might change. It is this personal identity which I called the "metaphysical ego".
It seems to exist, not as an entity separate from the body, but somehow endures as a function of the body. What a mystery! ---- one which I have come nowhere near in solving!

[Guest]

It seems odd to me that these responses have come. Noone comes to the Father but by me says Jesus...The Holy Spirit is giveN to those who are "born again" and living for Christ. The Holy Spirit was promised by our Savior, Jesus, when HE left...He would not leave us comfortless but instead
will lead and guide us in ALL truth. Noone can have the precious Holy Spirit without Christ. All I know is that HE picked me up 33 yrs ago hitchhiking and invited me to know the Father..What a Savior! What a miracle! He has guided me and taught me HIS precious ways and HIS
sheep know HIS voice and will not follower another. HALLELUJUAH!!!