Does God speak?

[Guest]

We hear a lot (at least I do) christian and especially pastors saying, "God spoke to me." I believe God is telling me to ect. ect. ect. fill in the blank.

"Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit." Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow..." James 4:13-14

I think you know where I'm going with this.

Does God speak?

You will hear pastors say stuff like. I believe God has given me vision for this next couple of years. Then, in the next view sentences they'll fit in, Christ could return at any moment.

So did God give you vision for the next couple of years, or will he return any moment?

Many more thoughts on this, but I figured I'd through it out there like this for now.

[Guest]

God is not the author of confusion. Sooooo...Either He does not speak to people about plans that are more than a few seconds into the future because of an imminent return or...He is not returning imminently and He does speak to us about future plans.

Hmmmm...Guess that depend on your views of X-Cultology.

[Guest]

Hello,

God has spoken to me on numerous occasions. The main way, of course, that I "hear" God is through the scriptures, but there have been several occasions where I have heard Him very clearly as thoughts in my head that are absolutely not me. When I initially became a Christian, I would have long conversations with God. This had never occurred prior to becoming a believer.

When God speaks to me, btw, it is personal direction, not what He wants me to tell someone else to do.

[Guest]

Hmmmm...Guess that depend on your views of X-Cultology.

That would be correct.

Hi Mort, how then do you explain this scripture in James?

"Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit." Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow..." James 4:13-14

[Guest]

He is not returning imminently and He does speak to us about future plans.

We'll save it for the other board, but I'm not sure Paul believed Jesus would return imminently either.

Let no one in any way deceive you for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first... 2 Thess 2:3

[Guest]

Hi Mort, how then do you explain this scripture in James?

Quote:
"Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit." Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow..." James 4:13-14

You only provided half of the thought. James goes on to say:

"Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." As it is, you boast and brag. All such boasting is evil. Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins."
- James 4:15-17

This has nothing to do with not planning ahead. It has to do with not being presumptuous when planning ahead.

[Guest]

This has nothing to do with not planning ahead. It has to do with not being presumptuous when planning ahead.

So as to say, we can never know for sure if God has spoken to us. Correct?

You will hear pastors say stuff like. I believe God has given me vision for this next couple of years. Then, in the next view sentences they'll fit in, Christ could return at any moment.

I've never heard that vision statement follow by failure. Meaning, God showed me this ministry is going to fail.

Where I trying to head with this is.

If James says we don't know what tomorrow will bring, and you follow that up with we can't be "presumptuous", then the question still remains: Does God speak.

Maybe I should clarify that or narrow it down a little. Does God speak to people about the future since the scripture is pretty clear we don't know what tomorrow will bring. Jesus Himself said this.

[Guest]

So as to say, we can never know for sure if God has spoken to us. Correct?

Ultimately it is a matter of faith and discernment.

Does God speak to people about the future since the scripture is pretty clear we don't know what tomorrow will bring.

Yes.

Here is a Biblical example:

During this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. One of them, named Agabus, stood up and through the Spirit predicted that a severe famine would spread over the entire Roman world. (This happened during the reign of Claudius.) The disciples, each according to his ability, decided to provide help for the brothers living in Judea. This they did, sending their gift to the elders by Barnabas and Saul. - Acts 11:27-30

This event would have occured roughly around the time that James wrote his epistle. Agabus prophetically predicted a future event. The disciples took action based on that prediction.

On the other hand, I think bogus and presumptuous claims of visions, prophecies and "God told me" are rampant in the church today. Especially in Charismatic circles. I could tell you stories... 8)

Rather than have one man (or woman) stand before the congregation and explain what the vision (or mission statement) is, which I would call the "top-down" approach, I think it is more scriptural (body of Christ and all that) for the vision to come from the bottom up. What I mean by "bottom up" is that the members of a congregation receive from God their individual visions (burdens, callings, etc.) and collectively these visions form a mosaic. The job of leadership is not to mandate a vision (top-down) but to assist and equip the members in discovering and stepping out into their own vision.

I love the way the Quakers approach this. They meet together and wait in silence for God to speak to them collectively. They don't move forward until they have consensus on what God is telling them. It takes longer than the "top-down" approach so common in churches today, but I believe it is very effective. Everyone plays a part and every view can be expressed and weighed, including those of dissent.

[Guest]

Rather than have one man (or woman) stand before the congregation and explain what the vision (or mission statement) is, which I would call the "top-down" approach, I think it is more scriptural (body of Christ and all that) for the vision to come from the bottom up. What I mean by "bottom up" is that the members of a congregation receive from God their individual visions (burdens, callings, etc.) and collectively these visions form a mosaic. The job of leadership is not to mandate a vision (top-down) but to assist and equip the members in discovering and stepping out into their own vision.

I love the way the Quakers approach this. They meet together and wait in silence for God to speak to them collectively. They don't move forward until they have consensus on what God is telling them. It takes longer than the "top-down" approach so common in churches today, but I believe it is very effective. Everyone plays a part and every view can be expressed and weighed, including those of dissent.

Thanks for that.

I think it is more scriptural (body of Christ and all that) for the vision to come from the bottom up. What I mean by "bottom up" is that the members of a congregation receive from God their individual visions (burdens, callings, etc.) and collectively these visions form a mosaic.

Can you give me some N.T. examples?

[Guest]

Can you give me some N.T. examples?

The example shown throughout the N.T. is of believers exercising their gifts to mutually edify one-another. That is how they did church (ekklesia). It is a far cry from the typical way we do church now where most of the people sit as a passive audience while only a few perform the ministry. The church of the N.T. was not a hierarchy (as it later became) but functioned more organically. Like a body.

I think you might enjoy (and possibly have your mind blown) by the following books by Frank Viola
( http://www.ptmin.org ):

Rethinking the Wineskin
Who's Your Covering
Pagan Christianity

As far as scriptural examples, here are some that come to mind (I've added a few underlines for emphasis):

1 Corinthians 12:14-26 "Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. If they were all one part, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it."

Colossians 3:15-17 "Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him."

Ephesians 5:15-20 "Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is. Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Ephesians 4:15-16 "Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work."

1 Corinthians 14:26 "What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church."

Romans 1:11-12 "I long to see you so that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to make you strong— that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by each other's faith."

Hebrews 10:23-25 "Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching."