This is primarily directed towards Steve, but jump in with anything.
Steve-
I was listening to your teaching "Refuse to be Offended" and you mentioned that you had problems with the medical profession. I'm curious as to what you were referring and why?
Anyone else -
What are your thoughts?
The medical field
The medical field
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
My concerns with the medical practice are not objections to medicine and physicians, per se. Jesus Himself said that physicians are needed for those who are sick (Matt.9:12).
My concerns are with certain current medical attitudes and practices, especially, the over-reliance on pharmaceuticals and over-eagerness to recommend unnecessary surgical procedures (like many hysterectomies and C-sections, for example).
I have several friends who are godly medical practicioners, and to whom I would gladly go if ever I needed medical procedures done on me, but in general, our culture has come to rely upon doctors to a degree that ought to be reserved for our faith in God. Very often, we are like King Asa, who "even in his illness he did not seek help from the LORD, but only from the physicians" (2 Chron.16:12).
The attitude of the medical field, in general (apart from those courageous individual physicians who resist this trend), is to assume that any procedure that our technology enables us to do, should be done. Abortion, transgenderal surgery, stem-cell research, organ harvesting, cloning and much of the routine vaccinating of infants, come immediately to mind. Some of these practices are opposed by all Christians, and others are controversial even among us, but all of them are of questionable wisdom and morality. Nonetheless, they are monetarily profitable practices, and are likely to be with us for a long time to come.
We can clearly see the non-Christian agendas in some of these more-obviously-immoral practices. Therefore, we cannot assume that medical science will be very concerned about Christian morality in general, and practitioners may advocate procedures that are less glaringly wrong, but still morally questionable. Thus it behoves Christians to be discerning and selective in their choices of medical treatments.
In a culture where science is "god," its practitioners are the priesthood. Medical science, in particular, is capable of holding great sway over those who fear nothing so much as their inevitable mortality, and who will follow any procedure and spare no expense to prolong their sorry earthly existence a few more days.
Many doctors are offended if their patients express doubts about a suggested procedure that they have recommended. They are not to be questioned. They are the priesthood of the religion of medical science.
Many doctors have too much confidence in the pharmaceutical solutions to human problems, and ignore spiritual solutions, or even nutritional solutions which God has provided in nature. Perhaps the fault lies not so much with the physicians (who usually are just doing what they have been taught to do), but with the pharmaceutical companies, who push their wares on the public and on the physicians alike, and who disseminate disinformation regarding the safeness and efficacy of non-pharmaceutical remedies. If good health can be maintained by spiritual and natural means, without their prescriptions, this challenges their monopoly on the health care industry. This may adversely impact both their pride and their pocketbooks.
As I said, I have no problem using a doctor's legitimate services (e.g., the setting of a broken bone), and I have often consulted Christian friends who are physicians about health concerns relevant to myself or family members. I am thankful to God that such resources are available, when needed. Just like the leaders of the church, doctors provide a service to be tapped in time of need, but Christians should not allow them to usurp the role that belongs to God alone in their lives.
A couple of interesting websites on nutritional and natural health are given below (I am recommending them only for the information they contain. I am not selling or recommending their products). If any forum readers know some other websites of similar value, please feel free to post them.
http://www.knowledgeofhealth.com
http://www.survivalvitamins.com
My concerns are with certain current medical attitudes and practices, especially, the over-reliance on pharmaceuticals and over-eagerness to recommend unnecessary surgical procedures (like many hysterectomies and C-sections, for example).
I have several friends who are godly medical practicioners, and to whom I would gladly go if ever I needed medical procedures done on me, but in general, our culture has come to rely upon doctors to a degree that ought to be reserved for our faith in God. Very often, we are like King Asa, who "even in his illness he did not seek help from the LORD, but only from the physicians" (2 Chron.16:12).
The attitude of the medical field, in general (apart from those courageous individual physicians who resist this trend), is to assume that any procedure that our technology enables us to do, should be done. Abortion, transgenderal surgery, stem-cell research, organ harvesting, cloning and much of the routine vaccinating of infants, come immediately to mind. Some of these practices are opposed by all Christians, and others are controversial even among us, but all of them are of questionable wisdom and morality. Nonetheless, they are monetarily profitable practices, and are likely to be with us for a long time to come.
We can clearly see the non-Christian agendas in some of these more-obviously-immoral practices. Therefore, we cannot assume that medical science will be very concerned about Christian morality in general, and practitioners may advocate procedures that are less glaringly wrong, but still morally questionable. Thus it behoves Christians to be discerning and selective in their choices of medical treatments.
In a culture where science is "god," its practitioners are the priesthood. Medical science, in particular, is capable of holding great sway over those who fear nothing so much as their inevitable mortality, and who will follow any procedure and spare no expense to prolong their sorry earthly existence a few more days.
Many doctors are offended if their patients express doubts about a suggested procedure that they have recommended. They are not to be questioned. They are the priesthood of the religion of medical science.
Many doctors have too much confidence in the pharmaceutical solutions to human problems, and ignore spiritual solutions, or even nutritional solutions which God has provided in nature. Perhaps the fault lies not so much with the physicians (who usually are just doing what they have been taught to do), but with the pharmaceutical companies, who push their wares on the public and on the physicians alike, and who disseminate disinformation regarding the safeness and efficacy of non-pharmaceutical remedies. If good health can be maintained by spiritual and natural means, without their prescriptions, this challenges their monopoly on the health care industry. This may adversely impact both their pride and their pocketbooks.
As I said, I have no problem using a doctor's legitimate services (e.g., the setting of a broken bone), and I have often consulted Christian friends who are physicians about health concerns relevant to myself or family members. I am thankful to God that such resources are available, when needed. Just like the leaders of the church, doctors provide a service to be tapped in time of need, but Christians should not allow them to usurp the role that belongs to God alone in their lives.
A couple of interesting websites on nutritional and natural health are given below (I am recommending them only for the information they contain. I am not selling or recommending their products). If any forum readers know some other websites of similar value, please feel free to post them.
http://www.knowledgeofhealth.com
http://www.survivalvitamins.com
Last edited by FAST WebCrawler [Crawler] on Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
Then it follows the principle of reviewing all aspects of life by the standard of the Bible.
However, what about vaccinations is considered unbiblical?
I agree with you on all the above onerous practices with the exception of infant and child vaccinations. Ironically, many of them stand in complete opposition to the Hippocratic Oath that all doctors take.The attitude of the medical field, in general (apart from those courageous individual physicians who resist this trend), is to assume that any procedure that our technology enables us to do, should be done. Abortion, transgenderal surgery, stem-cell research, organ harvesting, cloning and much of the routine vaccinating of infants, come immediately to mind.
However, what about vaccinations is considered unbiblical?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
My concern about vaccinations is not related to their morality or immorality so much as their safety, and the ethics of practictioners who know the dangers and still push for immunizations. There are many who can tell you much more than I can about these matters.
My limited reading has convinced me that there are toxic doses of mercury in many vaccines, which can be very hazardous. There have been studies correlating the vaccinating of infants and children with the occurrence of autism, Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS), and even the contracting of the disease that the immunization is meant to prevent.
No one should decide about immunizations on my authority, since I am not a man of science, nor very knowledgable about such things. I would recommend those considering immunizing their children to do their own research on the pros and the cons.
I confess that I was long ago influenced by the controversial books by Dr. Robert Mendelsohn, M.D.—"Confessions of a Medical Heretic," "Malepractice," and "How to Raise a Healthy Child . . . in Spite of Your Doctor." This author has come under severe counter-attacks from the medical world, who have a lot at stake in the effort to discredit him. I read both sides and wonder whom to believe. Suffice it to say that people should do more research on these matters before simply accepting every medical procedure recommended by their doctors.
An excellent website for information about immunizations is: http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/intro.htm
A good introductory article on the subject, by Dr. Vernon Coleman, can be read at: http://www.vernoncoleman.com/vaccines.htm
The following is an excerpt:
In my view all parents should have the right to decide whether or not their child has any vaccine. They should not just be told by their doctor that they must accept his assurance that the vaccine is perfectly safe and completely essential.
‘My doctor implied that I was just being stupid when I said I wasn’t sure that I wanted my child vaccinated,’ complained one reader. ‘His attitude was that it had nothing to do with me and that I should just allow him to do whatever he thought best.’
‘My wife came home crying,’ complained another reader. ‘She had had the temerity to question her doctor about vaccination. He told her that if she refused to have our child vaccinated he would call in the social workers since in his view our refusal to allow vaccination made us unfit to be parents. What really upset me is that my wife hadn’t refused to have our child vaccinated. She just wanted to talk about it.’
This paternalistic attitude seems strong among doctors and other health workers, most of whom seem to prefer to answer any questions with abuse rather than facts.
My limited reading has convinced me that there are toxic doses of mercury in many vaccines, which can be very hazardous. There have been studies correlating the vaccinating of infants and children with the occurrence of autism, Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS), and even the contracting of the disease that the immunization is meant to prevent.
No one should decide about immunizations on my authority, since I am not a man of science, nor very knowledgable about such things. I would recommend those considering immunizing their children to do their own research on the pros and the cons.
I confess that I was long ago influenced by the controversial books by Dr. Robert Mendelsohn, M.D.—"Confessions of a Medical Heretic," "Malepractice," and "How to Raise a Healthy Child . . . in Spite of Your Doctor." This author has come under severe counter-attacks from the medical world, who have a lot at stake in the effort to discredit him. I read both sides and wonder whom to believe. Suffice it to say that people should do more research on these matters before simply accepting every medical procedure recommended by their doctors.
An excellent website for information about immunizations is: http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/intro.htm
A good introductory article on the subject, by Dr. Vernon Coleman, can be read at: http://www.vernoncoleman.com/vaccines.htm
The following is an excerpt:
In my view all parents should have the right to decide whether or not their child has any vaccine. They should not just be told by their doctor that they must accept his assurance that the vaccine is perfectly safe and completely essential.
‘My doctor implied that I was just being stupid when I said I wasn’t sure that I wanted my child vaccinated,’ complained one reader. ‘His attitude was that it had nothing to do with me and that I should just allow him to do whatever he thought best.’
‘My wife came home crying,’ complained another reader. ‘She had had the temerity to question her doctor about vaccination. He told her that if she refused to have our child vaccinated he would call in the social workers since in his view our refusal to allow vaccination made us unfit to be parents. What really upset me is that my wife hadn’t refused to have our child vaccinated. She just wanted to talk about it.’
This paternalistic attitude seems strong among doctors and other health workers, most of whom seem to prefer to answer any questions with abuse rather than facts.
Last edited by FAST WebCrawler [Crawler] on Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
More and more we are finding that vitamins that were supposed to be so helpful in large doses are more likely to harm than help. The problem with many vitamins and minerals is that no rigorous double-blind studies have been done; they are touted because of a theory, much like female hormones were. Some of them can cause harmful interactions with needed medications.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
A Berean
My wife and I are torn over infant and childhood vaccinations. My concern is about what happends if you refuse? What is the law on this matter? Especially if you homeschool? Children should not be required to recieve vaccinations if they are not participating in daycare or school where these are usually required by law. I know you can decline on religeous grounds, but it still has to be approved (if you put them in school without vaccinations).
So does anyone know? Obviously the JW's at least for some time refused vaccinations and I never heard of them having legal problems.
I've also read that's it's not a specific vaccination but the vast number given that is the problem.
So does anyone know? Obviously the JW's at least for some time refused vaccinations and I never heard of them having legal problems.
I've also read that's it's not a specific vaccination but the vast number given that is the problem.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)
-
_Christopher
- Posts: 437
- Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:35 pm
- Location: Gladstone, Oregon
Sean,
I think it's going to vary from state to state. I know in Oregon it is not required by law to vaccinate your children until they attend some sort of public school. However, the pediatricians strongly endorse it. For them, I'm sure it's for purely utilitarian reasons. I struggled with this same issue when my first son was born. I did a lot of research and didn't seem to get anywhere. There are a lot of conflicting studies out there. In the end, we just decided to go with the "conventional" medical wisdom of the day and get the vaccines. The odds are in favor of not suffering ill side effects. Without many compelling reasons not to vaccinate, and several compelling reasons to do so, we thought it was the right thing to do for our son. Without clear biblical guidance on this, we just went with what we felt was right and trusted his protection to the Lord. We know that He loves our (or actually His) kids infinitely more than we do. It's hard to know. I agree with Steve on many of his points though about trusting God with our health since He's the One who numbers our days ultimately anyway. I think we have become a little too dependent on medical science in our culture, and less dependent on Him.
I think it's going to vary from state to state. I know in Oregon it is not required by law to vaccinate your children until they attend some sort of public school. However, the pediatricians strongly endorse it. For them, I'm sure it's for purely utilitarian reasons. I struggled with this same issue when my first son was born. I did a lot of research and didn't seem to get anywhere. There are a lot of conflicting studies out there. In the end, we just decided to go with the "conventional" medical wisdom of the day and get the vaccines. The odds are in favor of not suffering ill side effects. Without many compelling reasons not to vaccinate, and several compelling reasons to do so, we thought it was the right thing to do for our son. Without clear biblical guidance on this, we just went with what we felt was right and trusted his protection to the Lord. We know that He loves our (or actually His) kids infinitely more than we do. It's hard to know. I agree with Steve on many of his points though about trusting God with our health since He's the One who numbers our days ultimately anyway. I think we have become a little too dependent on medical science in our culture, and less dependent on Him.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32
Christopher,
You bring up an interesting point for discussion:
How much should we as Christians use doctors and medical technology?
Is it a lack of trust in God to seek medical assistance?
This question doesn't include -
- that Steve mentioned above and to which I would add many forms of birth control. These are already outside ethical boundaries according to Scripture.
Is it appropriate for Christians to exhaust all ethical medical treatment for a condition or illness and then trust God for the miraculous? Or vice versa? Or to pursue both at the same time?
Thoughts? Scriptures?
You bring up an interesting point for discussion:
How much should we as Christians use doctors and medical technology?
Is it a lack of trust in God to seek medical assistance?
This question doesn't include -
Abortion, transgenderal surgery, stem-cell research, organ harvesting, cloning and much of the routine vaccinating of infants, come immediately to mind.
- that Steve mentioned above and to which I would add many forms of birth control. These are already outside ethical boundaries according to Scripture.
Is it appropriate for Christians to exhaust all ethical medical treatment for a condition or illness and then trust God for the miraculous? Or vice versa? Or to pursue both at the same time?
Thoughts? Scriptures?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
-
_Christopher
- Posts: 437
- Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:35 pm
- Location: Gladstone, Oregon
Hi Schoel,
This is one of those topics that can be very easy to over-complicate. The bottom line for me is trusting God in all things. The scriptures that comes to my mind initially are some ones we all know:
Prov 3:5-6
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct your paths.
NKJV
The Holy Spirit doesn't leave us without guidance on things that are important to Him. If we acknowledge Him, He will guide our paths.
The other one that comes to mind is also a popular one:
Matt 6:25-34
25 "Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature? 28 So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; 29 and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31 Therefore do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32 "For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.
NKJV
Yes, it's talking about food and clothing here and not health care. But I think there is a broader principle being expressed by Jesus and that is not to worry about these things, but have our minds set on the things of God. We have to remember that God provides for us in many ways. Some he calls to the mission field or the ministry and provides all their needs somewhat miraculously it seems. Others (like me) He grants the ability and the opportunity to work and provide the things Jesus listed. I personally think the same applies to health care. In my opinion, there are some prudent ways to utilize modern medical science (all of which is ultimately provided for by God whether the doctors acknowledge that or not, similar to Deut 8:17-18 ). But like Steve said, there is also the danger of medicine replacing God as the object of our trust. I say, let the Spirit lead. He convicts us just enough to get our attention and know what is right in His eyes. I very rarely go to the doctor, but we do take our kids in for their regular check ups and stuff. I am at peace with our current usage of medicine and we generally don't worry about it too much.
Anyway, that's the way I currently approach it.
God bless.
This is one of those topics that can be very easy to over-complicate. The bottom line for me is trusting God in all things. The scriptures that comes to my mind initially are some ones we all know:
Prov 3:5-6
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct your paths.
NKJV
The Holy Spirit doesn't leave us without guidance on things that are important to Him. If we acknowledge Him, He will guide our paths.
The other one that comes to mind is also a popular one:
Matt 6:25-34
25 "Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature? 28 So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; 29 and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31 Therefore do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32 "For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.
NKJV
Yes, it's talking about food and clothing here and not health care. But I think there is a broader principle being expressed by Jesus and that is not to worry about these things, but have our minds set on the things of God. We have to remember that God provides for us in many ways. Some he calls to the mission field or the ministry and provides all their needs somewhat miraculously it seems. Others (like me) He grants the ability and the opportunity to work and provide the things Jesus listed. I personally think the same applies to health care. In my opinion, there are some prudent ways to utilize modern medical science (all of which is ultimately provided for by God whether the doctors acknowledge that or not, similar to Deut 8:17-18 ). But like Steve said, there is also the danger of medicine replacing God as the object of our trust. I say, let the Spirit lead. He convicts us just enough to get our attention and know what is right in His eyes. I very rarely go to the doctor, but we do take our kids in for their regular check ups and stuff. I am at peace with our current usage of medicine and we generally don't worry about it too much.
Anyway, that's the way I currently approach it.
God bless.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32
Christopher,
Good feedback.
When wrestling with various issues, I sometimes forget that if I'm committed to God with my focus to please Him, that the Holy Spirit will guide into all truth (John 14:26). I too often tangle myself in all the facets of an issue as if I have to make the decision on my own rather than look to the Holy Spirit for an answer.
Thanks.
Good feedback.
When wrestling with various issues, I sometimes forget that if I'm committed to God with my focus to please Him, that the Holy Spirit will guide into all truth (John 14:26). I too often tangle myself in all the facets of an issue as if I have to make the decision on my own rather than look to the Holy Spirit for an answer.
Thanks.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason: