Consulting or calling up the dead

[Michelle]

Greeks, Babylonians, Persians, Phoenicians, Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus, Egyptians and most other religions believed the same thing. Does that make Christianity more like paganism from where these beliefs stem from?




I'm only interested in Paul and Stephen's statements, so if it sounds like paganism then speak to them.

...but...they're...dead...

Either you can't, or you're not supposed to, speak to them.

[steve7150]

but...they're...dead...

Either you can't, or you're not supposed to, speak to them.





Actually sleeping on the job, but i think right after we die we will meet a lot of folks, maybe Paul and Stephen.

[RND]

I'm only interested in Paul and Stephen's statements, so if it sounds like paganism then speak to them.

Paul and Stephen both knew when their change would come. In a moment. Though we may be dead for hundreds or even thousands of years when the time comes we will be raised "to immortality." Last trump = Day of Atonement language.

Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where [is] he? 11 [As] the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: 12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens [be] no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. 13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! 14 If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. 15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

What was God's warning to Adam Steve? You shall surely die or I shall surely burn you forever?

[steve7150]

Paul and Stephen both knew when their change would come. In a moment. Though we may be dead for hundreds or even thousands of years when the time comes we will be raised "to immortality." Last trump = Day of Atonement language.



References from the OT don't matter if Jesus's death changed this death condition . I don't know what could be much clearer then Stephen saying "Lord Jesus receive my spirit" as Jesus was standing up in heaven as if to receive Stephen's spirit.

[RND]

References from the OT don't matter if Jesus's death changed this death condition .

But that just it, Jesus' death didn't change the fact that people die. They do. They didn't experience "sleep in the grave" prior to the cross and floating off to heaven afterward. Jesus is coming back to judge the "quick (alive) and the dead (dead).

I don't know what could be much clearer then Stephen saying "Lord Jesus receive my spirit" as Jesus was standing up in heaven as if to receive Stephen's spirit.

Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

pneuma - from pnew - pneo 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare yuch - psuche 5590.

This is very much in keeping with what Stephen's understanding would have been seeing that Stephen read the "Old Testament" i.e. the Tanakh: The breath returns to the God that gave it and the body returns to the dust from whence it came.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

It can't be any cleaer Steve, when Stephen died Luke described him as "going to sleep" not floating off to see his maker. If we are to believe that all scripture is "God breathed" and "inspired" by God this would have been a perfect place for God to reveal what had not been previously revealed. See that Stephen went to sleep like everyone else in the Bible that died I can only believe he is "awaiting his change."

Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

[steve7150]

This is very much in keeping with what Stephen's understanding would have been seeing that Stephen read the "Old Testament" i.e. the Tanakh: The breath returns to the God that gave it and the body returns to the dust from whence it came.





No actually i think it would have been Stephen's understanding of Jesus teachings not OT teachings and Paul's statements "willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord" and "I would rather depart and be with Christ" and it is also Paul that spoke of our "inner man."
Paul the Apostle not the Babylonians.

[RND]

No actually i think it would have been Stephen's understanding of Jesus teachings not OT teachings

Did Jesus ever teach that men had two nature's? The Hellenistic "Duality of man?"

Not on your life! No need to raise the dead on the last day if they're already in heaven. No need to separate the sheep from the goats or the wheat from the tares on the last day if they're already in heaven.

and Paul's statements "willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord" and "I would rather depart and be with Christ"

Let's break that down a little if we can.

2Cr 5:8 We are confident, ,

Why would Paul say that? Confident in death? Most likely it was in relation to what he mentioned in his first letter to those at Corinth.

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

and willing rather to be absent from the body,

What was in the grave? A body? What was Paul alluding too then when he said "we shall all be changed?"

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

So Paul was saying in the first letter that which is corruptible must put on "incorruption" and this mortal must put on "immortality." And when did this happen? In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump. And when exactly would this happen? At the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound.

and to be present with the Lord.

So at the last trump, in a moment and in the twinkling of an eye, the dead shall be raised incorruptible.

and it is also Paul that spoke of our "inner man."

2Cr 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

"I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know–God knows. Whether my body was there or just my spirit, I don't know; only God knows. "

Paul the Apostle not the Babylonians.

Fortunately Paul knew when his change would come and could share his knowledge with others. Just like Job knew.

[steve7150]

Fortunately Paul knew when his change would come and could share his knowledge with others. Just like Job knew.



I think you are mixing apples with oranges, since immortality is in fact what is granted on the last day as Paul said, not being present with the Lord for the first time for believers.
Paul said he would "rather depart and be with Christ" , there is no time interval in these words therefore his "inner man" will be with Christ presumably in some angelic form , then on the last day he receives his immortal supernatural body for eternity.
Jesus and Paul said the dead are sleeping which means they are conscience and do have thoughts which is different then OT teaching, therefore if they are conscience why would believers lay around in graves conscience for 2,000 years? It actually seems cruel therefore i think Paul's hope that he would be with the Lord when he dies makes more sense then laying conscience in a grave for 2,000+ years.

[Suzana]

Did Jesus ever teach that men had two nature's? The Hellenistic "Duality of man?"

Not on your life! No need to raise the dead on the last day if they're already in heaven. No need to separate the sheep from the goats or the wheat from the tares on the last day if they're already in heaven.
...
2Cr 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

"I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know–God knows. Whether my body was there or just my spirit, I don't know; only God knows.

I don’t see how Paul could have worded this experience in this way if he didn’t believe in some form of ‘duality of man’. So if he didn’t know (let’s assume he’s talking of himself) whether his body went to heaven, that means he believes it’s possible his body remained on earth, (perhaps appearing dead), while his conscious self went out of it into heaven.
How is this any different than believers dying, their bodies remain buried on earth, while their “consciousness, (soul?)”, or their spirit goes to be with the Lord? – ‘absent from the body, present with the Lord’.
It seems the only difference would be that Paul was re-united with his body sooner rather than later, and also that he did not receive immortality of his body at that time (which he would indeed not expect to happen until the last trumpet).

[Paidion]

I have heard many preachers say " As the apostle Paul put it 'to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord' ". If that were, in fact, what Paul had said, it would pretty well clinch the argument. It would mean an instant translation after death into the presence of the Lord. But that's not what Paul said. Let's look at in context and do a bit of exegesis!

2 Corinthians 5:1-8

For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked.

Paul thinks of our body as being a "house" or a "tent" in which we live. So he says that if this body is destroyed we have a "building" that is a different kind of body from God --- a permanent body in the heavens. Does Paul not refer to the resurrection body here? He says we earnestly desire to be "clothed" with our habitation from heaven so that we shall not be found naked. In other words, we will not be a disembodied spirit, but will have a "habitation from heaven", that is a resurrected body.

For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.

Paul indicates that we do not groan in this body because we want to be a disembodied spirit (unclothed) but that we might be further clothed with the immortal resurrection body. Notice the phrase "that mortality might be swallowed up by life". Does this not remind us of the great resurrection chapter ( I Corinthians 15) where Paul affirms, "This mortal must put on immortality".

Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

While we are at home in this present mortal body, we are absent from the Lord. We walk by faith. We do not see the Lord directly. We would prefer to be absent from this present mortal body, and be present with the Lord in that immortal resurrection body. Then we would no longer have to walk by faith, but we would see Him face to face.