Consulting or calling up the dead

[darinhouston]

A similar point in a related thread here...

Re: Does The Ark Represent Jesus? or Mary?
by darinhouston on Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:40 am

I'm not sure this text is intended to teach us anything necesssarily about the reality of the intermediate state prior to Christ's return, but instead to recognize that when this life is over, we can look forward to the very real presence of the Lord. It is possible, though, considering our belief that we will indeed be in our resurrected bodies and therefore not "absent from the body," upon Christ's return that this is merely hyperbole from Paul indicating his frustration shared with all believers regarding the present limitations of our war with the flesh and the extent to which even in our salvation we are somewhat separated from Christ in a way that we one day will not be.

It could, also, merely be a simple way for Paul to say we wish we could go ahead and proceed to glory but have a job to do here and we should rejoice in that. In any case, this does not sound the sort of statement in context to support a larger doctrinal position with regard to the afterlife or intermediate state.

[RND]

I don’t see how Paul could have worded this experience in this way if he didn’t believe in some form of ‘duality of man’. So if he didn’t know (let’s assume he’s talking of himself) whether his body went to heaven, that means he believes it’s possible his body remained on earth, (perhaps appearing dead), while his conscious self went out of it into heaven. How is this any different than believers dying, their bodies remain buried on earth, while their “consciousness, (soul?)”, or their spirit goes to be with the Lord? – ‘absent from the body, present with the Lord’.
It seems the only difference would be that Paul was re-united with his body sooner rather than later, and also that he did not receive immortality of his body at that time (which he would indeed not expect to happen until the last trumpet).

Suzanna, see Paidon's reply right after your question to me....I think he explained things well.

Let's put it this way. Whether one is dead for 40 years or 4,000 years their next waking thought will be that of being in the presence of the Lord. To me, that doesn't seem so unusual for God to have such a desire in terms of recreating life. Everyone gets to start fresh.

I have always wondered in this sense about the thief on the cross, saved by his faith in Christ, "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." Does that mean when he died he made it to "paradise" before Jesus did? Jesus didn't ascend to heaven until "Pentecost" in that He was the living type of first fruits.

Does that mean the thief got to heaven before Jesus? I have the same question regarding Lazarus. Jesus said, "Come forth" as in still being in the tomb, not "come down" as in being in heaven.

[Paidion]

As we know, there was no punctuation in the early Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Which of the following did Jesus actually say to the thief on the cross?

1. I am telling you, today you will be with me in paradise.

OR

2. I am telling you today, you will be with me in paradise.

[Suzana]

Let's put it this way. Whether one is dead for 40 years or 4,000 years their next waking thought will be that of being in the presence of the Lord.

Firstly I should state that I really don’t mind if this turns out to be the case, instead of a form of consciousness in some form of paradise upon bodily death, before the last day resurrection.
Either way would be good, and I can see scriptural support for both to the extent that I’ve never been able to permanently settle upon one view.

Having said that, your question regarding the thief on the cross and Lazarus would be adequately covered by what Steve 7150 said:
”References from the OT don't matter if Jesus's death changed this death condition”- if it is correct, whatever changes there were wouldn’t take effect until after Jesus ascended into heaven.

But I don’t think anyone has addressed my question on the implications of the dual nature of man in reference to Paul’s trip into heaven, possibly minus his body.

[steve7150]

As we know, there was no punctuation in the early Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Which of the following did Jesus actually say to the thief on the cross?

1. I am telling you, today you will be with me in paradise.

OR

2. I am telling you today, you will be with me in paradise.



I think Jesus used this phrase about 70 times in scripture"I am telling you" or "Verily verily i say to you" or "Truly truly i say to you" and he then stated what he meant. He never modified it in any other case.

[RND]

Firstly I should state that I really don’t mind if this turns out to be the case, instead of a form of consciousness in some form of paradise upon bodily death, before the last day resurrection.

Suzanna, do you have a choice in the matter?

Either way would be good, and I can see scriptural support for both to the extent that I’ve never been able to permanently settle upon one view.

I only see one view supported by scripture myself.

Having said that, your question regarding the thief on the cross and Lazarus would be adequately covered by what Steve 7150 said:
”References from the OT don't matter if Jesus's death changed this death condition”- if it is correct, whatever changes there were wouldn’t take effect until after Jesus ascended into heaven.

I'd love to see a scriptural basis stated for God changing the rules of the game at the cross. Does that mean folks that died before the cross are still in the ground awaiting their change while those that doed after the cross get a free pass into heaven? How would that be fiar or just?

But I don’t think anyone has addressed my question on the implications of the dual nature of man in reference to Paul’s trip into heaven, possibly minus his body.

I think I did. I think Paidon did quite nicely. I think Jesus did in Luke 16:18-31 did very nicely.

[RND]

I think Jesus used this phrase about 70 times in scripture"I am telling you" or "Verily verily i say to you" or "Truly truly i say to you" and he then stated what he meant. He never modified it in any other case.

Steve, do you believe the thief got to heaven before Jesus?

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

[Suzana]

As we know, there was no punctuation in the early Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Which of the following did Jesus actually say to the thief on the cross?

1. I am telling you, today you will be with me in paradise.

OR

2. I am telling you today, you will be with me in paradise.

I have come across this point before; I wonder if we ever will know, this side of death...

But, I'm wondering, if 2. is correct, what paradise was Jesus referring to? When He returns on the last day and there is a resurrection, won't we be with Him on the new earth, rather than returning to heaven?

[RND]

When He returns on the last day and there is a resurrection, won't we be with Him on the new earth, rather than returning to heaven?

Christ never touches the ground at His second coming. We meet Him in the air, not on the ground. The "New Jerusalem" isn't brought to earth until after the judgment and the millennium.

[Suzana]

Firstly I should state that I really don’t mind if this turns out to be the case, instead of a form of consciousness in some form of paradise upon bodily death, before the last day resurrection.

Suzanna, do you have a choice in the matter?

RND, do you really think I don't know the choice isn't mine?

But just in case you do, let me paraphrase:

Some Christians believe that when we die, the bible teaches that we totally remain unconscious/dead until the resurrection on the last day when Jesus returns.

Some Christians believe that when we die, the bible teaches that our conscious soul self goes to be with the Lord, while our body remains dead and buried until the resurrection on the last day when Jesus returns.

I don't really care which of these views turns out to have been correct, since either way the very next moment of awareness I (as a Christian) have will be pretty good, no matter how much or how little time has elapsed. OK?