Hey, I just got back from meeting with a Muslim who wanted to learn about Christianity. It was quite enjoyable...and I think I adaquately presented Christianity and provided some good reasons why some of his "Islamic" problems with Christianity were unfounded. It's too bad he is too interested in earning his way to salvation through works... He would rather be held accountable for his sin than accept YHWH holding His Son accountable for it instead. Well, that's his choice, but it is sad. I don't believe I am righteous because of anything I have done, and I would be in a sore predicatment if that was true. Well, as Yeshua said, he didn't come for those who don't need saving, he came to those (like me) who DESPERATELY need him to save them. Anyway....
The guy brought up an interesting point concerning Genesis 21, how Ishmael, who is older than Isaac, and must be about 13 to 16 by this time (which is the age of a man in that culture/time) is described as a boy or child...placed on Hager's shoulder for her to carry...cries as a baby because he can't get his own food and survive in the wilderness...shoves or throws the child/boy under some vegetation as one might do with a small child but not with a grown man...etc
Just wondering what the thoughts were on this part.
Genesis 21--was Ishmael a wimp, or what?
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_Anonymous
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Genesis 21--was Ishmael a wimp, or what?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Ishmael was probably about sixteen when he and his mother were forced to leave Abraham's encampment. He was thirteen when Isaac was born, and now Isaac was weened. It has always seemed strange to read about this young man's incapacity to endure the hardship of the desert, in contrast to his mother's strength and hardiness. Upon reflection, however, I would see this as not entirely unrealistic, in light of the respective lives the boy and his mother had lived.
As the only prince in the home of a wealthy chieftain, Ishmael may well have been very pampered from infancy. He may never have worked a day in his life, never exerted himself in any way and never had to endure the full harshness of the elements. In other words, he appears to have been a wimp. He also was not very emotionally mature for his age (as seen in his mocking his baby brother at his weening ceremony).
It is entirely possible that Ishmael was a rather small and frail person and his mother strong and large. She had been a slave, brought from Egypt into Abraham's household. She had worked hard all her life and probably had had to endure the oppression of the sun's heat, to which she had become accustomed. We don't know that all these factors existed, but they are all very reasonable to assume, and they may well be suggested by the story concerning which you inquired.
As the only prince in the home of a wealthy chieftain, Ishmael may well have been very pampered from infancy. He may never have worked a day in his life, never exerted himself in any way and never had to endure the full harshness of the elements. In other words, he appears to have been a wimp. He also was not very emotionally mature for his age (as seen in his mocking his baby brother at his weening ceremony).
It is entirely possible that Ishmael was a rather small and frail person and his mother strong and large. She had been a slave, brought from Egypt into Abraham's household. She had worked hard all her life and probably had had to endure the oppression of the sun's heat, to which she had become accustomed. We don't know that all these factors existed, but they are all very reasonable to assume, and they may well be suggested by the story concerning which you inquired.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
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_Benjamin Ho
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Just a comment to GUEST: Perhaps Abraham gave Ishmael to Hagar rather than put Ishmael onto Hagar's shoulders.
Gen 21:14 So Abraham rose early in the morning and took bread and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar, putting them on her shoulder, and gave her the boy, and sent her away. And she departed and wandered about in the wilderness of Beersheba.
New American Standard Bible 1995 Update. LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995.
Gen 21:14 So Abraham rose early in the morning, and took bread and a skin of water; and putting it on her shoulder, he gave it and the boy to Hagar, and sent her away.
The New King James Version. Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1996, c1982.
Gen 21:14 So Abraham rose early in the morning and took bread and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar, putting them on her shoulder, and gave her the boy, and sent her away. And she departed and wandered about in the wilderness of Beersheba.
New American Standard Bible 1995 Update. LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995.
Gen 21:14 So Abraham rose early in the morning, and took bread and a skin of water; and putting it on her shoulder, he gave it and the boy to Hagar, and sent her away.
The New King James Version. Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1996, c1982.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
I couldn't get very concerned about whether or not Hagar carried her teenage son on her shoulders. I was more concerned with some of the words which guest wrote:
This isn't the reason Paul and Peter give for the death of Christ. Rather He died to deliver us from sin. God wants righteous persons ---- truly and actually righteous, not merely "positionally righteous".
1 John 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. NASB
Nowhere do we read that Yahweh holds His Son accountable for our sins!It's too bad he is too interested in earning his way to salvation through works... He would rather be held accountable for his sin than accept YHWH holding His Son accountable for it instead. Well, that's his choice, but it is sad.
This isn't the reason Paul and Peter give for the death of Christ. Rather He died to deliver us from sin. God wants righteous persons ---- truly and actually righteous, not merely "positionally righteous".
The apostle John warned us against this kind of thinking:I don't believe I am righteous because of anything I have done, and I would be in a sore predicatment
1 John 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. NASB
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald