The Narrow Path Ministries

I have posted the following notice at the forum about Roman Catholics and the Bible. I welcome feedback.

Note to RND,

You will find that I have deleted your last two posts on this thread, as well as my replies to them. I did this for two reasons:

1) You were continuing to hijack this thread on Roman Catholicism to push your sabbatarian agenda. There are threads set apart for that topic, and Darin had already requested that, if you were going to continue on that topic, you should do so at another thread.

2) You continue to post long articles by other people, even though you have been told several times by members here that that is not what this forum is for. It is for real people to dialogue—not for idealogues who have shown up here just to push their favorite doctrine to fill our pages with cut-and-paste articles from other websites, when they themselves are apparently no longer able to hold up their end of the argument.

You are very near to being banned, because you simply dominate the forum to the point that hardly anyone else seems to participate anymore. I believe I understand why they do not...because I would have been driven elsewhere were I not obligated to moderate here.

You apparently have little to do with your time other than to perpetuate strife over your favorite few issues. You always insist on having the last word, even when you have long-since run out of things to say. You wear out your correspondents by simply continuing to add posts that take the topic no further forward, but which seem to require responses from people who are busier than you, and cannot spend their whole days posting on the internet. Your knowledge of the Bible, it seems, ranks you among the lowest 10% of our participants, and yet, you think you have the most to say.

The people here are accustomed to an atmosphere characterized by

1) Open-minded Christians who are searching the scriptures without an ax to grind;

2) Intelligent discussion, where a person presents actual biblical arguments for his/her position, with his/her own insights and in his/her own words, and then similarly responds to the arguments that others present. Preferably these people actually understand what an argument is, and know when they have presented one, and when they have not;

3) People who only post and initiate new threads when there is something of interest or importance to discuss—rather than simply posting something everyday on as many threads as possible, so as to be the dominant personality in every discussion;

4) People who show a bit of doctrinal humility, and are not trying to convert everyone to their narrow viewpoint.

These are the things that have attracted many of our members here over the years. Your participation here has been in violation of every one of these principles, and has changed the environment to such an extent that the forum now seems like "The RND Show." If the personality and insights of RND were pleasant or impressive, this might not drive people away so much. However, you came here without a clue as to what we do here, and just decided to transform the environment into something that many of us find obnoxious and unpleasant. I am not willing to sacrifice the long-term participants here in order to give you your own forum. If you cannot fit in to what we are trying to do here, please find someplace where your type of idealogues are the standard fare.

Also, if you make any more condescending and rude remarks to any other participants here, they will be your last words at this forum.

steve wrote: have posted the following notice at the forum about Roman Catholics and the Bible. I welcome feedback.

Note to RND,

You will find that I have deleted your last two posts on this thread, as well as my replies to them. I did this for two reasons:

1) You were continuing to hijack this thread on Roman Catholicism to push your sabbatarian agenda. There are threads set apart for that topic, and Darin had already requested that, if you were going to continue on that topic, you should do so at another thread.

Steve, the posts you chose to delete were in response to a query you made of me, not I of you. I was quite happy to let the thread return to it's original direction. But let's be honest. I was responding to some you said and something you posted about Romans 14.

2) You continue to post long articles by other people, even though you have been told several times by members here that that is not what this forum is for. It is for real people to dialogue—not for idealogues who have shown up here just to push their favorite doctrine to fill our pages with cut-and-paste articles from other websites, when they themselves are apparently no longer able to hold up their end of the argument.

I've never been told that, once. Also, I always provide a proper link that shows where the material came from. I would also like to add this. Steve, if you are so confident of the positions you hold, so confident in the truth you believe and espouse then there would be absolutely no need to delete anything.

You are very near to being banned, because you simply dominate the forum to the point that hardly anyone else seems to participate anymore. I believe I understand why they do not...because I would have been driven elsewhere were I not obligated to moderate here.

Steve are you seriously going to blame me for the fact that posting is down on your board? Do you think if you posted a note on the board that "RND has been banned" posters would suddenly reappear with joyous shouts!

You apparently have little to do with your time other than to perpetuate strife over your favorite few issues. You always insist on having the last word, even when you have long-since run out of things to say. You wear out your correspondents by simply continuing to add posts that take the topic no further forward, but which seem to require responses from people who are busier than you, and cannot spend their whole days posting on the internet. Your knowledge of the Bible, it seems, ranks you among the lowest 10% of our participants, and yet, you think you have the most to say.

Ah Steve, you constant need to try and belittle me speaks more for you than it does for me. Have you thought for a second that maybe there are folks that have seen you do this are leaving because of this?

The people here are accustomed to an atmosphere characterized by

1) Open-minded Christians who are searching the scriptures without an ax to grind;

Then there should be no need to delete posts right? Open-minded means not being afraid of any error because one is secure in the positions they hold. Deleting threads that are counter to your position is not being open-minded.

2) Intelligent discussion, where a person presents actual biblical arguments for his/her position, with his/her own insights and in his/her own words, and then similarly responds to the arguments that others present. Preferably these people actually understand what an argument is, and know when they have presented one, and when they have not;

This has always been done by me, you just don't like the arguments I make because they are counter to yours.

3) People who only post and initiate new threads when there is something of interest or importance to discuss—rather than simply posting something everyday on as many threads as possible, so as to be the dominant personality in every discussion;

So, just exactly how is new conversation driven?

4) People who show a bit of doctrinal humility, and are not trying to convert everyone to their narrow viewpoint.

Have I ever suggested that anyone has to be a Seventh-day Adventist? Have I ever suggested someone has to believe like I do?

These are the things that have attracted many of our members here over the years. Your participation here has been in violation of every one of these principles, and has changed the environment to such an extent that the forum now seems like "The RND Show." If the personality and insights of RND were pleasant or impressive, this might not drive people away so much. However, you came here without a clue as to what we do here, and just decided to transform the environment into something that many of us find obnoxious and unpleasant. I am not willing to sacrifice the long-term participants here in order to give you your own forum. If you cannot fit in to what we are trying to do here, please find someplace where your type of idealogues are the standard fare.

Steve when you begin to stifle new thought and new positions like you have done and people see that it is a sure recipe for stagnant growth. When I signed up and read the rules there was nothing that said "You must believe like Steve or else."

Also, if you make any more condescending and rude remarks to any other participants here, they will be your last words at this forum.

Would those comments be the same type of condescending and rude remarks you continue to make towards me? Your "Your knowledge of the Bible, it seems, ranks you among the lowest 10% of our participants" was certainly uncalled for. No biggie though. Nothing from me targeted at you. I've decided to take the high road with you Steve and not jump in the same sand box as you apparently like to play in.

RND, I don’t think Steve wants to squelch your ideas and input to this forum. I think he’s addressing the nature in which you’re posting. Contrary to what you might believe, I think the reason Steve is responding to you in such a fashion is because he’s looking for any way not to have to ban you. He’s a person who craves variety of thought and would not want to silence anyone’s voice at this forum. I think he’s searching for the right words and hoping that somehow you might understand the nature of the forum. If he didn’t want your input at all then he would have banned you a long time ago.

When I was first a Christian I was told certain beliefs. When anyone challenged them my instinct was to frantically try and find a way to “defend” the position. Now when I hear a different position my instinct is to find out why that person holds that view because I may have been wrong and I might learn something. At worst, even if I retain my current view, I’ve learned to understand and appreciate where someone else is coming from. That is how I see the nature of this forum. Not as a place to merely propagate my views (although I do that from time to time) but as a place to learn from others.

SteveF wrote:RND, I don’t think Steve wants to squelch your ideas and input to this forum.

Steve, I appreciate your comments very much but it would appear that the apparent necessity to remove posts that are contrary to one's beliefs would seem like "squelching ideas."

I think he’s addressing the nature in which you’re posting. Contrary to what you might believe, I think the reason Steve is responding to you in such a fashion is because he’s looking for any way not to have to ban you.

He’s a person who craves variety of thought and would not want to silence anyone’s voice at this forum. I think he’s searching for the right words and hoping that somehow you might understand the nature of the forum. If he didn’t want your input at all then he would have banned you a long time ago.[/quote]

Steve, I don't talk down to Steve or insult him the way he seems compelled to do the same with me.

When I was first a Christian I was told certain beliefs. When anyone challenged them my instinct was to frantically try and find a way to “defend” the position. Now when I hear a different position my instinct is to find out why that person holds that view because I may have been wrong and I might learn something. At worst, even if I retain my current view, I’ve learned to understand and appreciate where someone else is coming from. That is how I see the nature of this forum. Not as a place to merely propagate my views (although I do that from time to time) but as a place to learn from others.

Steve, that's outstanding! You know it's interesting in a way that holding on to what I believe and clearly stating why I believe what I do is considered "propagation." It seems to me that no one hear on this forum has asked me, "David, why do you believe what you do" sans a few posters. Steve, I believe what I do because I am convinced this is what the Bible teaches. I welcome any interaction that would, in a respectful manner, attempt to use scripture to prove my beliefs are incorrect.

steve g- i welcome your comments 100%.

RND- SteveF is correct. i disagree with a fair amount that is posted here; for example there is a poster whos used to go by FatherofFIve but now i think goes by todd-- i am not sure that i have ever agreed with him on anything, but his manner of posting is so non-offensive that it is actually a pleasure to disagree with him. i also dont agree with allyn's eschatological views (yet) but again his posting style is inoffensive. the same could be said for 90% of the posters here.

a while back we had some rabid calvinistic posters who had to be similarly chided by Steve G for similar reasons. its not the fact that they are rabid calvinists, but rather the manner and style of their posting.

i have no way of knowing why those who seemed to regularly post here no longer do so. my own posting waxes and wanes depending on what is discussed. curretnly my posting is down because the hot topics arent of much interest to me. are you part of the reason? i would not be telling the truth if i said that you were not PART of the reason.

when it comes to specifics like sabbath keeping, if you feel convicted about this issue, more power to you. but why do you feel compelled to convince me or anyone else? you have made your case, now move on.

If I am in doubt about a particular theological issue, i will often defer to Steve G's teaching on the subject, or at minimum greatly respect his opinion. Perhaps you have not listened to his hundreds and hundreds of hours of teaching available online, or listened to his radio show. if you did, you would realize that steve is not some bully out to crush any opposition. but he is able to make an argument from scripture. your cavalier treatment of him is akin to a 1st year science student lecturing steven hawking on particle physics. trust me- steve knows more than you do about the Bible. Not to say you have to agree on everything, but at least show some deference where it is due.

TK

Steve,

I agree with your assessment of the situation. I have been reading (and occassionally) posting on this and the prior forum for several years. I have enjoyed the open mindedness and honest truth-seekers at this forum. I also appreciate the generally humble attitudes that prevail here. I do not think RND sees why you (and others) object to his style. I do not think he sees it when you and others point out he has not addressed the questions and counter-arguments directed at him. He does not know you as well as others who have been here a long time and have seen how patient you have been with people with different views. I doubt he realizes the time you spend in composing responses to him and others.

I would "speak" to him directly, but I do not see him as open to criticism.

I try to read every post, but I often cannot make it through his posts. I feel so frustrated.

I do not know what is the best thing to do. But I wished to express to you (openly) that you are not alone!

I am praying for the unity in Christ to prevail in this matter and generally at this forum!

Blessings!
Mike

I appreciate all the feedback to RND and agree with it all so far -- one other note. We had another issue recently with a participant who also continues to participate here from time to time. His responses were not so cavalier and abusive, but his posts were largely essays (of only peripheral interest to other discussions if at all) copied and pasted from elsewhere (with and without attribution). It was quite annoying and we have convinced him (I think) to begin posting them only in the "essays" section. He continues to participate in other ways here, and I'm glad to see him stick around while ceasing these distracting and non-helpful practices.

TK wrote: RND-

... realize that steve is not some bully out to crush any opposition. but he is able to make an argument from scripture. your cavalier treatment of him is akin to a 1st year science student lecturing steven hawking on particle physics. trust me- steve knows more than you do about the Bible. Not to say you have to agree on everything, but at least show some deference where it is due.TK

My sentiments exactly. (I am assuming that Steven Hawking is extremely knowledgeable about particle physics).

mdh wrote:I would "speak" to him [RND] directly, but I do not see him as open to criticism.

That's the unfortunate impression I also have. Hopefully there will come a maturing process (and that's the case for all of us, I know it's what I have experienced in my own life), where there will be a godly response to correction (as a conscious choice), rather than merely an instinctive, defensive reaction.

Dear Moderator(s),

I am of the opinion that RND's dominance on the forum hinders the participation of other users. In particular I have been engaging livingink in a pleasant conversation of the thread "Ethics->The Banking, Bailout, and Money". RND's participation on this thread appears to be following a similar to trend to that which has been noted above. While he does raise certain points that I do not mind engaging, I feel that his posts are all to often a distraction from the main line of thought, and so I do not feel the discussion will be fruitful - especially as livingink has informed me that he has very limited time.

I would like to make the request that posts after "Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:19 am" on this thread be moved into a new thread (e.g. same title + "FOR RND") or even deleted. I am not offended if you disagree and feel this request is unwarranted, or has been placed to quickly.

Thanks,
Peter