OSAS - a soteriological debate.

[Guest]

Evangelion wrote[True! But this does not stop them wandering away of their own accord.]

Let us allow Jesus explain this situation.

Jhn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. 30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? 31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. 32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. 34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. 35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. 48 I am that bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. 52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat? 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. 59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. 60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? 61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Those who are truly in a relationship with Jesus Christ will not be lost. Jesus was plain about this.

That's not what the passage above actually says. Furthermore, we know from Scripture that if a person ceases to believe in Jesus, he will not be saved.

If a person who has saving faith could somehow become un born spiritually and have the seal of the Holy Ghost broken then salvation is conditional on "their" performance to stay saved and Jesus died in vain. Eternal life is not based on our ability to keep it or to do anything to loose it. Salvation is based on faith alone in the finished work of Jesus Christ in his death buriel and resurrection from the dead. Not on our own righteousness or works.

I agree that it is not conditional upon our own righteousness. However, it is conditional upon our obedience and our belief.

Jesus also knew those who were his and those who were tag alongs or the religious followers. They had religion which will not save verses a relationship with Christ which will save.

Jesus said his words were spirit. Without the Holy Ghost convicting drawing and revealing truth to a person they can not be saved. Going to church, sunday school, being baptised, being confirmed, making communion,being good will not get you into heaven. Jesus said salvation is a narrow path and few who find it. Many are on the broad road of religion that is a highway to hell and many religious people who claim the name of Jesus are going to bust hell wide open as well as those "enlightened" ones who say no God.

and Evangelion said [Jesus chose Judas as one of his disciples, but Judas betrayed him.]

Jhn 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. 70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot [the son] of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Jesus knew Judas was not a believer from the beginning. Judas was never saved at any point. He was a devil. Judas played a good game he looked like a disciple walked talked acted like the others but was never a believer. He was a counterfit Christian who never had the change of heart it takes to believe in Christ as Saviour and Lord. Did this take Jesus by suprise? No Jesus knew Judas Iscariots heart and it was hard from unbelief.

The Bible does not say that Jesus knew Judas was not a believer from the beginning. Nowhere do we read that Judas was not a believer.

I would like you to addresses the quotes I provided earlier.

Here they are again:

• Matthew 7:21-23
  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
• I John 2:3-6
  And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
  But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
  He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also walk, even as he walked.

[Guest]

[If a person who has saving faith could somehow become un born spiritually and have the seal of the Holy Ghost broken then salvation is conditional on "their" performance to stay saved and Jesus died in vain. Eternal life is not based on our ability to keep it or to do anything to loose it. Salvation is based on faith alone in the finished work of Jesus Christ in his death buriel and resurrection from the dead. Not on our own righteousness or works.

I agree that it is not conditional upon our own righteousness. However, it is conditional upon our obedience and our belief.
]

Jesus says many times he promises ETERNAL LIFE.

Jhn 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Jhn 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

You must be regenerated spiritually. Born again Spiritually.

Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

You are only born physically one time it's impossible to be unborn physically or be reborn physically.

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

You must be reborn of the water of Gods word and the Spitit. Water is a metaphor of Gods word.

Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.


Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

We are born once of flesh the natural birth so we are born once in spirit.

Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Jhn 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Jhn 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
Jhn 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
Jhn 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things?
Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.
Jhn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

believeth is pisteuo {pist-yoo'-o} to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

perish is apollumi {ap-ol'-loo-mee} metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell and to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed

eternal is aionios {ahee-o'-nee-os} without end, never to cease, everlasting

life is zoe {dzo-ay'} of the absolute fulness of life, both essential and ethical, which belongs to God, and through him both to the hypostatic "logos" and to Christ in whom the "logos" put on human nature

Spiritual life without end God gives us regeneration in our spirit when the Holy Ghost indwells us.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Same words as eternal life

Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Eternal life is not conditional upon our ability to keep it by our actions. If a believer falls into a sinfull life God can chasten them to try and bring them back to a righteous life.

Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

God can take a believer home early if he is in rebellion or sin and doesn't repent.
1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Cr 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Cr 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Cr 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Cr 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

If a believer falls into sin he will suffer loss of rewaed at the Judgment seat of Christ but he will still be saved. If a believer refuses to repent God can destroy the body in death but preserve the soul and spirit.

1Cr 5:1 It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1Cr 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1Cr 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, [concerning] him that hath so done this deed,
1Cr 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Cr 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Here is a case of a wicked sinfull believer who you armenians would say has lost his salvation Paul instructs the church to let him go put him out of the church and let him be destroyed. His body would have been destroyed but not his Spirit. There is a sin unto death that God can use for a rebellious believer .

1Jo 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

[_Steve]

DonO

Concerning your statement: "If a person who has saving faith could somehow become un born spiritually and have the seal of the Holy Ghost broken then salvation is conditional on "their" performance to stay saved and Jesus died in vain. Eternal life is not based on our ability to keep it or to do anything to loose it. Salvation is based on faith alone in the finished work of Jesus Christ in his death buriel and resurrection from the dead. Not on our own righteousness or works." [followed by many verses of scripture]—

I am not sure how every one of the scriptures in your post contributes to the point under dispute, and I do not see your reasons for interpreting some of them the way you do, but many of the verses you cite do mention "believing" as a condition for possessing eternal life.

I cannot answer for Evangelion, since I am not sufficiently familiar with Christadelphian beliefs, but most of us here would agree that we are justified by faith, and not by our own righteous works.

However, this belief does not, in itself prove the following propositions that you seem to be wishing to defend:

1. That salvation is unconditional.

You have yourself indicated that salvation is conditioned upon faith, so it is impossible, at the same time, to assert that salvation is unconditional. To say that the death of Christ was for nothing if there is something we must do (i.e., "believe") is to assert what the Bible nowhere affirms.

2. That a person, once a believer, can never become an unbeliever.

This is not asserted in scripture, and would seem to contradict both scripture and history. Jesus spoke of those who "believe for a while" and then fall away (Luke 8:13), and Paul predicted that many will "depart from the faith" (1 Tim.4:1).

I have personally known a great many people who once believed and then departed from the faith—our friend kaufmanphillips, at this forum, would be one unashamed example.

3. That once you have eternal life, you must necessarily always have it, no matter what choices you make thereafter.

I see nothing in scripture to agree with this. A man has life for his faith (or faitfhulness—Hab.2:4). We draw upon the life of God (eternal life) by believing in Him and in Christ. In this way, we abide in Him, and enjoy His life—as branches enjoy the life of the vine to which they are attached.

However, those who apostasize are no longer believing or abiding in Christ. Jesus said that such branches are cast forth and withered—ultimately to be burned (John 15:6). Paul taught the same doctrine (Rom.11:22/ 1 Cor.9:27/ Gal.5:4/ Col.1:21-23), as did the writer of Hebrews, and the other authors of the New Testament. It was also taught in the Old Testament (e.g., Ezek.18:24).

No Christian would dispute that the life given to those who are in Christ is eternal. The Vine's life will never end. However, the participation of any individual in that life is conditional upon faith (as you have noted). Those who depart from the faith no longer can be called believers (since they do not believe). The promise of eternal life in Christ is only to believers—not ex-believers.

[Guest]

Don, your post doesn't actually engage with mine on any level.

[Guest]

Steve, Have you ever lost your salvation and How many times? How do you explain John 10? I am under a firm persuasion in eternal security. How can one offer hope If one believes they can loose it? Doesn't a born again Christian who receives the indwelling Spirit of God pass from death to life? How many times can one do this before it takes and what scripture do you know that supports that, if Any.

It seems to me you made an assumption (on ask an athiest) that I was a Calvanist. Where did you arrive at that? I am neither a Calvanist or an Armenian. I am a sinner saved by grace and will always be and have been for 25 years and will be for eternity.

Why did you move this discussion to a Calvanist/Arminian thread? Shoudn't it go under something like Bible Doctrine. It is the doctrine of salvation!

[Guest]

Please read carefully the following words of the apostle Paul:

Romans 2:6-10

For He will render To everyone according to his works.

To those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, He will give eternal life,

but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth,
but are persuaded by unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil, but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good...for God shows no partiality.

Now tell me again that salvation has no relation to what we do, or how we live our lives.

[_Steve]

Hi Frank,

I never said you were a Calvinist. What I said was that the particular discussion on page five of the "Ask an Atheist" thread had turned into a discussion about Calvinism, which, I believed would be more properly conducted in this forum.

You may not be a Calvinist, but the point that DonO and you were making is a Calvinist point—namely that a true believer cannot fall away. You may not hold to the other four points of classical Calvinism, but the doctrine of perseverence of the the saints correctly belongs in the Calvinism/Arminianism category.

You asked several questions, some of which sound rhetorical, but I will answer as if you are really interested in the answers:

Q. Steve, Have you ever lost your salvation and How many times?

A. Never have.


Q. How do you explain John 10?

A. Christ's sheep are those who hear His voice and follow Him (v.27). Those who fit this description will never be lost (v.28). Those who do not fit this description are indeed lost, because they are not His sheep (v.26). This is true even if they once were believers, but no longer are. The promises only apply to His sheep (whole passage).


Q. I am under a firm persuasion in eternal security. How can one offer hope If one believes they can loose it?

A. On the same basis that the Bible does. Those who trust in Him will never be ashamed (Rom.9:33). Those who choose to deny Him, will be denied before the Father in heaven (Matt.10:33/ 2 Tim.2:12).


Q. Doesn't a born again Christian who receives the indwelling Spirit of God pass from death to life?

A. Yes. And a branch grafted into an olive tree receives life from the olive tree as well. This state, however, can clearly be reversed (Rom.11:22).


Q. How many times can one do this before it takes...?

A. It "takes" every time, when genuine.


Q. ...and what scripture do you know that supports that, if Any.

A. See those cited above, in this post and my previous one.


For further discussion on related topics, see:

http://www.wvss.com/forumc/viewtopic.php?t=694

[Guest]

Steve, I have read the post thread about born again and I disagree. One of the things that I have noticed on this forum is that some of the post are a prove me wrong type thing. I came on this site because I was asked by someone who had heard your testimony and I read it and it was very genuine and I could relate.

I then saw this site and thought maybe It would be nice to read and post, then all of a sudden it has turned into an argument over salvation. I do not need and will not argue elementary priciples of the faith.

We can jumb back and forth using scripture after scripture to make a point but that is unnecesarry. I try to look at the whole cancil of God and His word and not take any scripture out of context. You say you are saved I say I am saved and neither has ever been born again twice. I would like to continue to post and maybe be of some service to this fellowship.

I know where you stand in the doctrine of Salvation and you know were I stand. I am not sure wher you stand with the Doctrine and diety of Jesus. That is another subject.

I do not avoid conflict when it is neccesarry to speak up, but sometimes there is more harm done to the body of christ through it then its worth.

You see I don't have to be right, but right with God. I don't have prove anything for I know what I believe. Salvation is one thing I believe every man needs and you said on a previous post that preaching was for the lost well it seems that preaching is for the saved also according to you because they might become lost.

As I said, I will bow gracefully out of ths discussion and continue to try and be a witness and service to others.

[_Steve]

Hi Frank,

I don't have any interest in picking a fight with you or anyone else. The subject we are discussing here was first raised, as near as I can ascertain, by you, in a post on July 17th, on the "Ask an Atheist" thread.

I'm not sure what you mean by a "prove me wrong" approach. I think what most of us here try to do is provide the scriptural basis for our opinions. Is this what you are referring to as a "prove me wrong" approach?

If you are referring to the doctrine of eternal security when you say "the elementary principles of faith," I suppose you are unaware that no one held such a doctrine in the church prior to Augustine, around 400 AD. Sometimes we assume that the doctrines taken for granted in the church or denomination that we were raised in or learned from are essential and basic to Christianity. This forum is a good place to test these assumptions.

No one begrudges your posting here—even your posting in favor of eternal security, so long as dialogue and correction don't offend you. That's actually what this forum exists for.

[Guest]

a few years ago i was a staunch proponent of OSAS.. this view has changed, in part due to finally coming to terms with the seemingly plain reading of scripture, debates with my pastor (who does not believe OSAS) and listening to steve's teaching on the subject.

i must say that I am somewhat "relieved" that my views have changed because there is no longer any pressure to try force seemingly plain teaching to mean something that it does not. OSAS is a very comforting doctrine, but i came to the point where the desire for comfort was outweighed by the desire to accept the truth, at least what I now believe the truth to be.

TK