The foreknowledge of God: a question for Arminians

[Guest]

So what right did God have to command that any prophecy which failed to come true would cost the life of the false prophet?

Homer, that doesn't seem to be what God commanded. This is what I found:

But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die. Deuteronomy 18:20

Jonah's prophecy that Ninevah would be destroyed in 40 days, did not come true. But Jonah didn't qualify to be put to death because God did command him to speak this prophecy.

Consider's Micah's prophecy concerning the destruction of Jerusalem. Micah's entire prophetic message has become one of the books of the Old Testament --- placed into the "inspired canon".

Therefore because of you Zion shall be plowed as a field; Jerusalem shall become a heap of ruins, and the mountain of the house a wooded height. Micah 3:12

Did Michah's prophesy come true? According to the record in Jeremiah, it didn't, because God changed His mind.

The priests and the prophets wanted to put Jeremiah to death because he prophesied destruction upon Jerusalem. Then we read the following account:

Then the officials and all the people said to the priests and the prophets, "This man does not deserve the sentence of death, for he has spoken to us in the name of the LORD our God."

And some of the elders of the land arose and said to all the assembled people, "Micah of Moresheth, who prophesied during the days of King Hezekiah of Judah, said to all the people of Judah: ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts, Zion shall be plowed as a field; Jerusalem shall become a heap of ruins, and the mountain of the house a wooded height.’

Did King Hezekiah of Judah and all Judah actually put him to death? Did he not fear the LORD and entreat the favor of the LORD, and did not the LORD change his mind about the disaster that he had pronounced against them? But we are about to bring great disaster on ourselves!" Jeremiah 26:16-19 NRSV

So a true prophet of God may prophesy things which do not come to pass, not because God didn't tell him to prophesy these things, but because He changed His mind afterward, responding to people when they change their own minds and their ways.

Jeremiah said the same thing in his own defence.

Then Jeremiah spoke to all the officials and all the people, saying, "It is the LORD who sent me to prophesy against this house and this city all the words you have heard. Now therefore amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God, and the LORD will change his mind about the disaster that he has pronounced against you. Jeremiah 26:12-13

[Guest]

BTW, for anyone not familiar with my theological position: I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian.

I believe that human beings have free will (which disqualifies me from Calvinism) and I reject the concept of "total depravity" (which disqualifies me from both Calvinism and Arminianism).

As far as i know Arminianism does'nt accept "total depravity" because that would preclude free will which Arminianism subscribes to.

[Guest]

As far as i know Arminianism does'nt accept "total depravity" because that would preclude free will which Arminianism subscribes to.

As far as I know, John Wesley held to total depravity, but understood the irresistable grace perspective differently than Tulip adherents.

Some Arminians hold to "partial depravity". This would mean that man is affected by the fall like calvinists affirm, but reject what calvinists would say is the consequences of this, which is total inability.

[Guest]

BTW, for anyone not familiar with my theological position: I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian.

I believe that human beings have free will (which disqualifies me from Calvinism) and I reject the concept of "total depravity" (which disqualifies me from both Calvinism and Arminianism).

As far as i know Arminianism does'nt accept "total depravity" because that would preclude free will which Arminianism subscribes to.

See Soaring Eagle's post.

As I understand their position, Arminians believe that "total depravity" renders man incapable of making any effort towards his own salvation, but does not preclude free will.

[Guest]

As I understand their position, Arminians believe that "total depravity" renders man incapable of making any effort towards his own salvation, but does not preclude free will.

Why would man be incapable of making an effort such as responding to God. Why would John perform a baptism of repentence before the Holy Spirit came down and why would Jesus tell people to repent? Isn't repentence making an effort even though it's not enough for salvation it seems to be an example of making an effort toward what God requires. It is probably the case that Arminian's differ on the total depravity issue because i don't see how it could be reconciled with free will.

[Guest]

As I understand their position, Arminians believe that "total depravity" renders man incapable of making any effort towards his own salvation, but does not preclude free will.

Why would man be incapable of making an effort such as responding to God. Why would John perform a baptism of repentence before the Holy Spirit came down and why would Jesus tell people to repent? Isn't repentence making an effort even though it's not enough for salvation it seems to be an example of making an effort toward what God requires. It is probably the case that Arminian's differ on the total depravity issue because i don't see how it could be reconciled with free will.

[Guest]

So what right did God have to command that any prophecy which failed to come true would cost the life of the false prophet?

Homer, that doesn't seem to be what God commanded. This is what I found:

Keep reading:

Deut 18:22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him (NKJV).

As already stated in response to the original post, does this have to be defined so rigidly? Can not God know what's going to happen if things continue the way they are, predict them through prophets and at the same time change His mind if they repent?

Why would God do this? Does He not know this will make it look as if He doesn't know what's going to happen? I don't think God cares about that. It seems that there is one reason for God to warn people, to get them to repent, as Jeremiah 18 states.

Besides, it doesn't seem like God is "changing his mind" as some people mean it since it's God's policy to "change His mind" if people repent.

Jer 18:7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.


So if God is being consistent with His own policy, is He really "changing His mind"?

[Guest]

As I understand their position, Arminians believe that "total depravity" renders man incapable of making any effort towards his own salvation, but does not preclude free will.

Why would man be incapable of making an effort such as responding to God. Why would John perform a baptism of repentence before the Holy Spirit came down and why would Jesus tell people to repent? Isn't repentence making an effort even though it's not enough for salvation it seems to be an example of making an effort toward what God requires.

Hey, don't ask me. I don't believe this rubbish.

Your points are excellent ones. They expose the gaping holes in Calvinism, too.

It is probably the case that Arminian's differ on the total depravity issue because i don't see how it could be reconciled with free will.

I think it can, if you allow that free will simply means "the ability to make one's own decisions."

I can understand how Arminians would believe that humans are capable of making their own decisions, but so depraved that they are unable to make decisions which bring them closer to God - unless He assists them.

[Guest]

Can not God know what's going to happen if things continue the way they are, predict them through prophets and at the same time change His mind if they repent?

God knows all possible choices that human beings (who have free will) may make. But knowing all possible choices is quite different from knowing what those choices will be!

Sean, you have not yet addressed the following scripture, which is clearly inconsistent with the view that God knows in advance every choice that anyone may make:

The LORD said to me in the days of King Josiah: Have you seen what she did, that faithless one, Israel, how she went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and played the whore there? And I thought, "After she has done all this she will return to me"; but she did not return, and her false sister Judah saw it. Jeremiah 3:6-7

If God had known all along that Israel would not return to Him, why did He say that He thought they would? Was He lying to Jeremiah?
If not, and He actually thought they would return to Him, then He did not know that they wouldn't.

[Guest]

Can not God know what's going to happen if things continue the way they are, predict them through prophets and at the same time change His mind if they repent?

God knows all possible choices that human beings (who have free will) may make. But knowing all possible choices is quite different from knowing what those choices will be!

Sean, you have not yet addressed the following scripture, which is clearly inconsistent with the view that God knows in advance every choice that anyone may make:

The LORD said to me in the days of King Josiah: Have you seen what she did, that faithless one, Israel, how she went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and played the whore there? And I thought, "After she has done all this she will return to me"; but she did not return, and her false sister Judah saw it. Jeremiah 3:6-7

If God had known all along that Israel would not return to Him, why did He say that He thought they would? Was He lying to Jeremiah?
If not, and He actually thought they would return to Him, then He did not know that they wouldn't.

Have you tried to read it in another translation? God is calling Israel to repentance. "And I said, after she had done all these things, ‘Return to Me.’ But she did not return."(NKJV) "And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. (KJV)"

IMO, you are reading a translators preference into the text. God is saying after they backslide, He called them to repentance, but they did not return. That seems to be borne out as you read the rest of the passage which is a call to repentance and a promise not to judge them if they repent. But to say that the translation you posted is iron-clad proof is like me quoting one of the "everlasting" passages (that you re-translate "age") is iron-clad proof. We all see through an internal consistency grid (we see what we want to see sometimes), even though we are all internally inconsistent (we don't have perfect vision).

I'm wondering, what do you make of the book of revelation? It has people who are dead (before the resurrection) speaking and doing things in "heaven". And it predicts things that will "shortly come to pass" that involve the future free will actions of men like:

"Rev 9:20 But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk. 21 And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts."

How can these things be told to John in advance? Repentance is a free-will choice, if not then Calvinism's "God makes you repent" is the alternative.

Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has power over these plagues; and they did not repent and give Him glory. 10 Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues because of the pain. 11 They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and did not repent of their deeds.

It seems that if you are correct, God can't know what these people will do with their free-will choices, be here we are, reading of them in a book about the future. You can't say that anyone will respond like that under those conditions because Job didn't. How did Jesus know Peter would deny Him 3 times before the rooster would crow? Isn't that a free-will moral choice? It seems that it can be demonstrated that God does know the future choices of free will agents, since scripture records this.